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  • Trump's impeachment trial.

    Here's a thread dedicated his impeachment trial. Lets try to stick to verifiable sources and keep a civil discourse.
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

  • #2
    Trump as a prosecution witness:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/polit...ess/index.html


    Can't get a new witness? Call Donald J. Trump.


    Republicans might be blocking new testimony in the Senate trial but Democratic impeachment managers keep returning to the person who makes their case better than anyone: the President himself.

    Trump, of course, is not literally in the Senate chamber -- though he said Wednesday he'd "love" to be in the front row to stare at his "corrupt" accusers.

    But for Democrats, there's no better evidence with which to paint a picture of what they say is a self-dealing, obstructive leader with a kingly view of his own powers than the highlight reel already compiled by the most television-obsessed president in history.
    "I have, in Article II, where I have the right to do whatever I want as President," Trump says in one clip aired on Tuesday by lead impeachment manager Rep. Adam Schiff, D-California.


    The Trump tapes not only break up hours of dense legal arguments. They also put the President at the center of the action, portraying him as the ringleader of the scheme to pressure Ukraine for political favors, and not an outsider player.

    They also confront the Republican senators, serving as jurors, with the direct evidence of what Democrats say is outlandish, impeachable behavior in a way that may not change their minds but is deeply uncomfortable.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ad hominem attacks appear to be Trump's lawyers defense tactic:

      https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/polit...-22/index.html


      Detail by detail, the Democrats prosecuting the impeachment case against President Donald Trump laid out their arguments on Wednesday. They included:
      • How Trump pressured Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, a potential Democratic rival in 2020;
      • How Trump held up about $400 million in US military and security aid, breaking the law and defying congressional intent;
      • How a White House meeting was dangled in front of the new Ukrainian President;
      • How insiders like Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland knew there was a quid pro quo for the aid;
      • How the Pentagon raised the alarm about the held aid;
      • How recently released emails -- hidden from Congress by the Trump administration -- detail the effort to hold the aid against the better judgment of most of the government;
      • How all of this also helped Russia, which tried to help get Trump elected.

      Not all of these facts factor into the formal impeachment articles -- abuse of power and obstruction of Congress -- that the Senate is considering, but the case, methodically laid out with video from the House impeachment hearings, is hard to deny.


      Are Republican minds being changed?



      Scott Jennings is a former aide to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and he laid out a very smart survey of what's going on for the GOP in the Senate chamber in an appearance on CNN.
      His point, which I thought was so important I typed it up in full below, is that Republicans might be uncomfortable with what Trump did, but they're not likely to throw him out of office for it. And Democrats, he said, aren't helping their cause by insulting Republicans.
      Here's the whole thing:
      Some agree Trump exercised 'galatically bad judgment'
      "I think there are Republicans in that room who have varying degrees of discomfort with what happened. I think some don't think it was a big deal, some are probably moderately alarmed and something it was a galactically bad judgment. And I think more may be thinking that.
      But there are only two choices -- acquit or remove him from office
      "But in this process there's just two choices, acquit the President or throw him out of office. And I think where Republicans are coming up short... are we really going to throw a President out of office for the first time in American history over this?
      Accusing the GOP of a coverup or stealing the election won't help Democrats
      "On the other side of the ledger, by the way, I'll tell you what I'm hearing out of Republicans down there, (Chuck) Schumer keeping the Senate in all night after complaining about 'Midnight Mitch' didn't go over well with the Republicans. Number two, (Jerry) Nadler accusing him of engaging in a cover-up definitely rankled Republicans and number three, (Adam) Schiff today also said, 'We have to throw the President out because he is going to steal the next election,' that effectively is what he said, which Republicans do not believe in."
      Murkowski, a key vote, was offended
      Proving Jennings' point, Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski, a moderate voice in the GOP, was bristling Wednesday at Nadler's accusation of a coverup.
      "I took it as very offensive," she told Alaska Public Media. "As one who is listening attentively and working hard to get to a fair process, I was offended."
      About coverups
      Of course, since it would take 20 Republicans to remove Trump from office, don't forget that while Democrats say they had no principled choice but to impeach Trump, it's also always been extremely unlikely they get much or any support for removing him from office. And if they can't get any help subpoenaing documents from the administration, it's not the stupidest political decision to call this a coverup.


      Comment


      • #4
        https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/opini...tary/index.htm

        Schiff brilliantly crushes Trump defense
        CNN Opinion is curating commentators' smartest takes on the second day of President Donald Trump's Senate impeachment trial. The views expressed below are their own.

        Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff did not come to play. On Wednesday, he laid out a strong case for why senators should vote to impeach and remove Donald Trump from the presidency.

        On a strategic level, Schiff's presentation was masterful: it was eloquent, thoughtful and -- most importantly -- restrained. While he
        invoked everyone
        from Alexander Hamilton to John F. Kennedy, he never slipped into histrionics or hyperbole, which any trial lawyer knows can backfire. Instead, he methodically went through a timeline of the President's alleged improper conduct.


        Given the sheer amount of ground that Schiff covered in two-plus hours, no senator can honestly claim to not know or not have heard about most aspects of the impeachment inquiry. Schiff laid it all out for the Senate and for the public (of which 51% favors impeachment, per a recent CNN poll).

        Very smartly, Schiff appealed to senators' and viewers' best instincts, saying: "The American people want a fair trial. They want to believe the system of government is still capable of rising to the occasion. They want to believe we can rise about party and do what's best for the country." This statement, by the way, is supported by national polling that finds most Americans want witnesses and new testimony allowed into the impeachment inquiry.

        Notice that Schiff did not have to resort to demonizing those who perhaps did not agree with him (indeed, he comported himself with the dignity required in such a grave and consequential matter).

        In fact, his presentation was especially strong when he played video clips of other people, including Trump, whose statements bolstered the House Democrats' case for impeachment. So just in case anyone had forgotten, we again got to see acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney basically admitting to a quid pro quo (regarding the withholding of Ukraine aid in exchange for an investigation into the Bidens) and telling reporters to "Get over it."

        While the President is on trial in the Senate, Schiff was careful not to make his opening remarks all about Trump. Much more is at stake, Schiff noted, including America's national security interests, the integrity of our elections and the permissible conduct of future presidents.

        Comment


        • #5
          CNN, MSNBC are covering the impeachment, Fox is not. Telling isn't it?
          Fox is spreading lies about what's going on during the impeachment trial. Convincing it's viewers that Americans aren't watching and neither should they.
          Talk about keeping your head somewhere deep and warm...
          The republican elitists do not want their base learning anything new, they must control the message and not allow the viewers to hear information that may hurt the republican brand.

          Comment


          • #6
            Fox isn't the only one spreading lies about the trial, et al. Trump's 'defense team' is doing the same thing and has provided nothing or next to nothing to counter the facts that are being produced by the prosecution. Further, by not allowing witnesses and relevant documents to be introduced, they are hindering prosecution. What are the Republicans and Trump afraid of?

            https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp
            House Democrats charged with prosecuting the impeachment case against President Trump on Wednesday scaled back their fiery language following a rare scolding from Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., as they began laying out their case for Trump’s removal from office for pressuring Ukraine to help him win reelection.

            The Republican barrage was led by Trump himself, who in Davos, Switzerland, called the top House managers “sleazebags” while denouncing his impeachment as a “hoax” and “disgrace” to his presidency.

            “I watched the lies from Adam Schiff. He’ll stand, he’ll look at a microphone, and he’ll talk like he’s so aggrieved,” Trump said at a news conference from the World Economic Forum in Davos, referring to the House Intelligence Committee chairman leading the prosecution.

            On Schiff and House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold L. Nadler (D-N.Y.), another impeachment manager and longtime Trump foe, the president added: “These two guys — these are major sleazebags. They’re very dishonest people. Very, very dishonest people.”

            As he flew back to Washington on Air Force One, Trump stirred up a veritable Twitter storm as he tweeted and retweeted messages primarily about impeachment, particularly from his Republican defenders — a barrage that marked the most tweets of any day of his presidency, with 142 as of 10 p.m., according to Factba.se, a website that tracks Trump’s tweets and speeches.

            That posturing provided a sharp contrast to the Democratic House managers, who struck a chastened tone in the Senate chamber Wednesday after the Roberts admonishment issued in the early hours of Wednesday. Saying that the Democrats had “adrenaline going through our veins,” Schiff began opening arguments Wednesday afternoon by expressing gratitude for the senators’ attentiveness.

            And Nadler, whose accusations that GOP senators were engaging in “treacherous” behavior angered Republicans, made sure to thank Roberts and the lawmakers for “your temperate listening and your patience last night as we went into the long hours.”

            “I think that was an attempt to shift the tone,” said Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.). “A lot of senators were offended last night at saying that a vote against their amendments was treachery, that it was a vote against the United States.”

            But the politics of the trial Wednesday rippled not only in Europe and in Washington but also in Iowa, where 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Biden was confronted with questions about whether he would be willing to testify in the proceedings.

            The former vice president — who, along with his son Hunter, has been the target of political investigations that Trump had asked of Ukraine — dismissed the idea that Democrats were even talking about a witness exchange involving Hunter and insisted he himself would not testify.

            “The reason I would not make the deal, the bottom line is, this is a constitutional issue,” Biden said in response to a voter’s question in Osage, Iowa. “We’re not going to turn it into a farce or political theater. I want no part of that.”



            But as Democrats softened their tone if not their message, Trump and his fellow Republicans dialed up their partisan rhetoric, with GOP senators largely ignoring Roberts’s admonition and leveling scathing attacks against the trial’s prosecutors.


            Democrats also appeared to shut down talk of a deal to secure testimony from former national security adviser John Bolton by offering to trade testimony from the son of former vice president Joe Biden, who was the focus of Trump’s alleged pressure campaign on Ukraine. Biden himself said he would refuse such an arrangement.

            Comment


            • #7
              I see Mitch M has been taking lessons from Joe Stalin on show trials with no witnesses.......and you wonder why nobody in the world cares or trust's America......................Land of laws and freedom....yea!!! right??? dont make me laugh.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bow View Post
                I see Mitch M has been taking lessons from Joe Stalin on show trials with no witnesses.......and you wonder why nobody in the world cares or trust's America......................Land of laws and freedom....yea!!! right??? dont make me laugh.

                Why would they require witnesses?
                The House made its case. The Senate rules on it.
                If there is a need for more witnesses doesn't that establish that the House failed to make its case?
                (Hint: yes)
                Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post


                  Why would they require witnesses?
                  The House made its case. The Senate rules on it.
                  If there is a need for more witnesses doesn't that establish that the House failed to make its case?
                  (Hint: yes)
                  Exactly!
                  Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
                    CNN, MSNBC are covering the impeachment, Fox is not. Telling isn't it?
                    Fox is spreading lies about what's going on during the impeachment trial.--.
                    Wait.... which one of the above statements is true?

                    I have been ignoring this, but maybe I was wrong to do so.
                    The reason I ignored it goes back to Adam Schiff's BIG LIE a few months ago. I read the transcript of the Phone Call, and then I heard Schiff's fabrications about it, and I called him out on it when it happened a a couple of times after that.

                    And then I saw that they went with the lie.... so I tuned it out to see what was happening in the rest of the world. Turns out there was an awful lot that we were not being told about.

                    Now, i have to wonder what I am missing, but I can't hear anything but hyperbole' from either side.

                    Questions; what laws have been broken? What are the statue numbers, I want to be able to find them in a Law Library independently of any links provided.



                    EDIT; Contempt of Congress is just this -

                    https://litigation.findlaw.com/legal...penalties.html

                    And the fact that there is no upward limit on what the punishment might be makes this look like a terrible law from the Reagan era.


                    But for abuse of power.... that is a phrase, not a specific crime. What is this leading to?
                    Last edited by Phaing; 23 Jan 20, 12:41.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nadler speech backfires....

                      That's the sure way to win a case - accuse the jurors of treachery and a cover-up-


                      House Democrats' handling of the Trump impeachment to date may be turning off Republicans -- notably, those seen as possible defectors in a final vote.

                      The first sign of a backlash among that critical group came Wednesday when Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, a moderate member of the conference, said she was offended by House manager Rep. Jerrold Nadler’s assertion that GOP members voting against allowing new testimony and evidence were engaged in a “cover-up.”

                      “I took it as offensive,” she told reporters Wednesday. “As one who is listening attentively and working hard to get to a fair process, I was offended.”

                      Nadler’s opening statement, which led to U.S. Chief Justice John Roberts admonishing those in the chamber, accused Republican senators of “voting for a cover-up, voting to deny witnesses, an absolutely indefensible vote, obviously a treacherous vote.”
                      https://www.foxnews.com/politics/imp...ce-and-stamina
                      Last edited by BorderRuffian; 23 Jan 20, 13:10.
                      {}

                      "Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight." -Proverbs 18:17

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
                        CNN, MSNBC are covering the impeachment, Fox is not. Telling isn't it?
                        Fox is spreading lies about what's going on during the impeachment trial. Convincing it's viewers that Americans aren't watching and neither should they.
                        Talk about keeping your head somewhere deep and warm...
                        The republican elitists do not want their base learning anything new, they must control the message and not allow the viewers to hear information that may hurt the republican brand.
                        Then why did FOX have the highest viewership ratings for the impeachment trail on day 1...?

                        Fox News on Tuesday topped all broadcast and cable networks in coverage of the first day of President Donald Trump’s impeachment trial in the Senate. According to early Nielsen data, the channel outpaced CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS and ABC in both total average viewers and average viewers in the advertiser coveted age demographic of 25-54.

                        From 12:30 p.m. ET to 5 p.m. ET, when Fox News and the other networks were doing special coverage around the day’s proceedings, Fox News brought in 2.654 million total average viewers, of which 394,000 of whom were in the demo.

                        CBS was next in total viewers, bringing in 1.943 million from 12:30 p.m. to 3 p.m., when it was running special coverage of the first day of the Senate trial. Of those, 362,000 were in the 25-54 demo.

                        MSNBC saw 1.909 million total average viewers but had the lowest amount in the demo at 261,000. ABC brought in 1.630 million total average viewers and 385,000 in the demo. Next was CNN with 1.439 million total and 383,00 between 25-54. Finally, 1.437 million tuned into NBC. Of those, 349,000 were in the coveted age range.
                        https://www.thewrap.com/trump-impeac...fox-news-wins/

                        Just to short cut the usual rebuttal of "RW source..." nonsense, The Wrap is an entertainment news and ratings site that has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with well, entertainment and ratings of shows on television...

                        Hollywood reporter says the same thing...

                        From 12:30 to 5 p.m. ET, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox News and MSNBC carried the feed from the Senate floor. It averaged 11.01 million viewers, with Fox News scoring the largest share of that audience, 2.65 million. CBS, which cut off its coverage at 3 p.m., drew 1.94 million, followed by MSNBC (1.91 million), ABC (1.63 million), CNN and NBC (1.44 million each).
                        https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li...iewers-1272169

                        Another entertainment and ratings source that is apolitical.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Massy please cease with the CNN spam. It's not a reliable news source and is just a Orange man bad click-bait source.
                          Credo quia absurdum.


                          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                            Massy please cease with the CNN spam. It's not a reliable news source and is just a Orange man bad click-bait source.
                            I have no idea who 'Massy' is...

                            I don't agree with you. CNN is a reliable news source, compared to Fox (aka the Trump channel) and other far right wing 'organizations.'

                            And if you don't agree with CNN's reporting, then post material that disagrees or negates it. If you can do that great-if not, then deal with it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Trump whines and moans and contributes nothing.

                              https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp
                              US President Donald Trump fulminated against his impeachment trial on Thursday as Democrats prepared to resume making their case to the Senate on why he should be removed from office.

                              Trump, who returned to Washington late Wednesday from the World Economic Forum in Davos, began his day with a volley of angry early morning tweets from the White House.

                              The Republican president accused Democrats from the House of Representatives of making a case for his impeachment to the Senate that was "loaded with lies and misrepresentations."


                              Comment

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