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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
    I'm not so sure. Look at Boris. Hitler was elected, not that I put him in the same boat as trump.
    Yeah, two-party system sucks, I thank God daily for coalition governments

    I think Johnson is more intelligent than Trump, and *slightly* less egocentric, but he wouldn't make it here either….

    Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

      Yeah, two-party system sucks, I thank God daily for coalition governments

      I think Johnson is more intelligent than Trump, and *slightly* less egocentric, but he wouldn't make it here either….
      Trump, no doubt, has an enormous ego, but his detractors act is if this trait is unique to him. After 8 years of Obama I wonder how anyone can think Trump's ego is unique.

      I would submit that everyone who runs for president has an enormous ego. Some are just more open about it than others.

      Does anyone really think that Biden or Hillary doesn't have an enormous ego?
      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

        Trump, no doubt, has an enormous ego, but his detractors act is if this trait is unique to him. After 8 years of Obama I wonder how anyone can think Trump's ego is unique.

        I would submit that everyone who runs for president has an enormous ego. Some are just more open about it than others.

        Does anyone really think that Biden or Hillary doesn't have an enormous ego?
        There's a difference between ego and egocentric which is Trump's problem. He only thinks and acts for himself.
        We are not now that strength which in old days
        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

          Yeah, two-party system sucks, I thank God daily for coalition governments

          I think Johnson is more intelligent than Trump, and *slightly* less egocentric, but he wouldn't make it here either….
          If one reads and understands the USA Constitution they will note that it doesn't set-up or mandate a "two party system". Often in USA history there have been more than two parties and only during the past century has situation "evolved" into two major parties and no third or more getting traction to be a contender. BTW, we do have several other political parties, they are just rather small in number of members and influence.

          As for "coalition governments", that's how the NSDAP/Nazis got into power running Germany with only about a third of the seats in their parliament, yet that was majority and made them the largest, and eventually dominant and only. You all can that.

          Neither Johnson nor Trump are socialist enough to make it there.
          Last edited by G David Bock; 13 Dec 19, 15:51.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post

            I'm not so sure. Look at Boris. Hitler was elected, not that I put him in the same boat as trump.
            I don't know enough about the UK system to comment on Boris, but Hitler definitely was not elected. He lost the 1932 presidential election to Hindenburg, who later appointed Hitler to the role of chancellor due to the Nazi Party having won the most seats in the Reichstag. Hitler later usurped the role of president upon Hindenburg's death and combined the two positions to become Fuhrer.
            Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

            Prayers.

            BoRG

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Salinator View Post

              I don't know enough about the UK system to comment on Boris, but Hitler definitely was not elected. He lost the 1932 presidential election to Hindenburg, who later appointed Hitler to the role of chancellor due to the Nazi Party having won the most seats in the Reichstag. Hitler later usurped the role of president upon Hindenburg's death and combined the two positions to become Fuhrer.
              Correct, Hitler was not elected!
              Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Salinator View Post

                I don't know enough about the UK system to comment on Boris, but Hitler definitely was not elected. He lost the 1932 presidential election to Hindenburg, who later appointed Hitler to the role of chancellor due to the Nazi Party having won the most seats in the Reichstag. Hitler later usurped the role of president upon Hindenburg's death and combined the two positions to become Fuhrer.
                There were two different positions in the German government. The position of the Chancellor, which is close to what a Prime Minster like Boris Johnson, and the position of the President whose role was closer to that of an elected "monarch," although he had more powers than what Queen Elizabeth has today.

                Hitler did manage to become a Chancellor after his party won most of the votes in the 1932 election. Some backroom negotiations were necessary but that was a normal thing since even though the Nazi Party was the biggest one, it still was short of having an absolute majority in the "Parliament" or say "Congress" (to use more familiar political terms)

                After Hitler rose to the position of the Chancellor, the German "Parliament" or "Congress" was basically bullied to pass the Enabling Act of 1933 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 ) which gave Hitler emergency powers in response to the Reichsteig fire. Hindenburg, singed the Act.

                Then, after Hindenburg's death Hitler concentrated all power on himself and became both a Chancellor and a President.

                I may have distorted some facts but I think the basic points are correct. German posters can jump in and make corrections.
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by pamak View Post

                  There were two different positions in the German government. The position of the Chancellor, which is close to what a Prime Minster like Boris Johnson, and the position of the President whose role was closer to that of an elected "monarch," although he had more powers than what Queen Elizabeth has today.

                  Hitler did manage to become a Chancellor after his party won most of the votes in the 1932 election. Some backroom negotiations were necessary but that was a normal thing since even though the Nazi Party was the biggest one, it still was short of having an absolute majority in the "Parliament" or say "Congress" (to use more familiar political terms)

                  After Hitler rose to the position of the Chancellor, the German "Parliament" or "Congress" was basically bullied to pass the Enabling Act of 1933 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 ) which gave Hitler emergency powers in response to the Reichsteig fire. Hindenburg, singed the Act.

                  Then, after Hindenburg's death Hitler concentrated all power on himself and became both a Chancellor and a President.

                  I may have distorted some facts but I think the basic points are correct. German posters can jump in and make corrections.
                  End of Story, Hitler was not elected by the People!
                  Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

                    End of Story, Hitler was not elected by the People!
                    End of story, you did not read carefully what I posted!
                    He was elected, and he gradually gained more powers until he became an absolute dictator.


                    The Chancellor (or the Prime Minister in Parliamentary systems) is not elected directly by the people. It is the size of the parties (which are elected by the people) that usually determines who will become the Chancellor or the Prime Mininster. The leader o the largest party is the one who will usually become the Chancellor or the Prime Minister.

                    This is different from the US where people can give Democrats a majority in the Congress (Parliament) but they can still vote for a Republican in the White House, and even in the US, the president is not directly elected by the people which is the reason why Trump is president even though he lost the popular vote.
                    Last edited by pamak; 13 Dec 19, 22:24.
                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post

                      End of story, you cannot read!
                      He was elected, and he gradually gained more powers until he became an absolute dictator.
                      I can read, he was never elected by the people of Germany, which one of the posters here contends that he was!
                      Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

                        I can read, he was never elected by the people of Germany, which one of the posters here contends that he was!
                        I edited my initial response it because I realized that I had to explain some differences which are not so apparent to some US posters. So, I took back my initial comment and wrote a more detailed response. Read it, and you will realize that it is misleading to simply say that Hitler was not elected. He rose to the position of the Chancellor in a legitimate way and through the results of the elections.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by pamak View Post

                          There were two different positions in the German government. The position of the Chancellor, which is close to what a Prime Minster like Boris Johnson, and the position of the President whose role was closer to that of an elected "monarch," although he had more powers than what Queen Elizabeth has today.

                          Hitler did manage to become a Chancellor after his party won most of the votes in the 1932 election. Some backroom negotiations were necessary but that was a normal thing since even though the Nazi Party was the biggest one, it still was short of having an absolute majority in the "Parliament" or say "Congress" (to use more familiar political terms)

                          After Hitler rose to the position of the Chancellor, the German "Parliament" or "Congress" was basically bullied to pass the Enabling Act of 1933 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 ) which gave Hitler emergency powers in response to the Reichsteig fire. Hindenburg, singed the Act.

                          Then, after Hindenburg's death Hitler concentrated all power on himself and became both a Chancellor and a President.

                          I may have distorted some facts but I think the basic points are correct. German posters can jump in and make corrections.
                          The Reichstag was not bullied, it gave Hitler enthusiastically all powers .
                          And Hitler did not manage to become RK after the Reichstagwahl of November 1932 : the nazis and the communists had a negative majority .Nazis 196 seats, communists 100 seats on a total of 585 .
                          The only options were
                          1 A military dictatorship ,but the army refused
                          2 A coalition government of NSDAP and conservatives wich was not possible in January 1933,but only after new elections.
                          3 A presidential cabinet without the nazis was no longer possible as the Reichstag would block all measures from the government and the only option for the government would be to dissolve parliament and call for new elections . There was already a complaint at the constitutional court that the governments of Papen and Schleicher ( in fact : Hindenburg ) were violating the constitution .
                          Or Hitler would become RK or there would be civil war .
                          The others had no choice ,and Hitler knew it . They were at his mercy .
                          A government without Hitler was not possible .

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                          • #58
                            The Enabling Act had nothing to do with the Reichstag fire . The Reichstag fire was immediately followed by the instauration of a state of Emergency in the whole of Germany, which abrogated certain articles of the Constitution which protected Civil Rights ( to use an alien American concept ) .
                            The Enabling Act from March 1933 has as aim to make the government independent from the Reichstag and the president : it gave the government the authority to make laws and to change the constitution without the consent of the Reichstag and the president : the government (= Hitler ) had not only the executive power but also the legislative power and dictatorship was a fact . Legally .The Enabling Act would also happen without the Reichstag fire . Legal democracy had already disappeared in Germany when in July 1932 the government von Papen was taking over power in Prussia ( biggest German state ) and the control of the Prussian police : there was in 1932 still no national police in Germany .
                            Last edited by ljadw; 14 Dec 19, 05:17.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

                              Correct, Hitler was not elected!
                              Yes : German Chancellors were and are still not elected by popular votes in an election,but were/are appointed by the president . British PM's also are not elected but appointed by the queen, although the custom is that she appoits PM the leader of the party that has the majority in the Commons, but if that person died in office,or resigns, it is his party who choses a new PM,by the usual intrigues, not the population .
                              When Bonar Law resigned as PM in 1923 and died a few weeks later , the Conservative leaders chose the unknown Baldwin. Eden was replaced by McMillan, McMillan by Home, Thatcher by Major, Blair by Brown, May by Boris ,allways without a say from the voters and even from the party members .
                              Last month the Belgian PM Michel resigned and went to Europe ( for a big part of the public opinion to fill his pockets , other people said that he did as the rats who left a sinking ship ) ,he was replaced by a totally unknown member of his own party . No one in Belgium knows her name .And no one knows or cares about who decided who would be the new PM .

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                                There were two different positions in the German government. The position of the Chancellor, which is close to what a Prime Minster like Boris Johnson, and the position of the President whose role was closer to that of an elected "monarch," although he had more powers than what Queen Elizabeth has today.

                                Hitler did manage to become a Chancellor after his party won most of the votes in the 1932 election. Some backroom negotiations were necessary but that was a normal thing since even though the Nazi Party was the biggest one, it still was short of having an absolute majority in the "Parliament" or say "Congress" (to use more familiar political terms)

                                After Hitler rose to the position of the Chancellor, the German "Parliament" or "Congress" was basically bullied to pass the Enabling Act of 1933 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 ) which gave Hitler emergency powers in response to the Reichsteig fire. Hindenburg, singed the Act.

                                Then, after Hindenburg's death Hitler concentrated all power on himself and became both a Chancellor and a President.

                                I may have distorted some facts but I think the basic points are correct. German posters can jump in and make corrections.
                                There is a very big difference between a British PM and a Chancellor of the Weimar Republic : the chancellors of the Weimar Republic were leading coalition governments who lasted not very long,while British PMs are the bosses of the government ( coalition governments are exceptions in Britain ) and the bosses of their party . The Weimar chancellors were not the chiefs of their party .

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