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  • Trump begins to take ownership of impeachment

    I saw it coming and it's bad news for the Democrats. Trump is taking ownership of the impeachment. He's making it his issue. Worse, when it goes to the Senate for trial, which is looking likely, the Republicans will control the floor. It will be the Democrat's turn in the box and it's not looking good.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp

    Let's say Trump does subpoena Joe Biden to testify. How's that going to look? Or, he forces Adam Schiff to testify right after subpoenaing and making the whistleblower testify? Can you imagine Pelosi stammering her way through testimony if called? It certainly looks as if John Kerry, Joe Biden, and Hunter Biden will all get a turn in the box and be called to testify. Linsey Graham has already started requesting documents from State and such about Kerry and Biden's role in Ukraine.
    While I'm not sure who will have more dirt turned up when the shovel is applied, if past history is any indicator, it's going to be the Democrats.

    This is going to get uglier and the Democrats won't avoid rolling in the mud with Trump who obviously relishes the opportunity to do so.

  • #2
    Typical Trump bluster and bravado. He either does that or he attacks and bullies someone. What a chump.
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Massena View Post
      Typical Trump bluster and bravado. He either does that or he attacks and bullies someone. What a chump.
      And if the House impeaches him, it goes to the Senate for a trial. Everything I proposed above has a real chance of occurring if it does. How's that going to play out?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

        And if the House impeaches him, it goes to the Senate for a trial. Everything I proposed above has a real chance of occurring if it does. How's that going to play out?


        Well, according to you, it will play out like Clinton's case.

        The Senate will acquit Trump but history will not and the stain in Trump's legacy will remain.

        And I will agree with such prediction...
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by pamak View Post



          Well, according to you, it will play out like Clinton's case.

          The Senate will acquit Trump but history will not and the stain in Trump's legacy will remain.

          And I will agree with such prediction...
          I would add, that like Clinton's case, it will hurt the Democrats in the next election. Worse, it will set precedent for the next time one party wants to pillory the other. It's a case of Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.

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          • #6
            Truth in that...
            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              I saw it coming and it's bad news for the Democrats. Trump is taking ownership of the impeachment. He's making it his issue. Worse, when it goes to the Senate for trial, which is looking likely, the Republicans will control the floor. It will be the Democrat's turn in the box and it's not looking good.

              https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp

              Let's say Trump does subpoena Joe Biden to testify. How's that going to look? Or, he forces Adam Schiff to testify right after subpoenaing and making the whistleblower testify? Can you imagine Pelosi stammering her way through testimony if called? It certainly looks as if John Kerry, Joe Biden, and Hunter Biden will all get a turn in the box and be called to testify. Linsey Graham has already started requesting documents from State and such about Kerry and Biden's role in Ukraine.
              While I'm not sure who will have more dirt turned up when the shovel is applied, if past history is any indicator, it's going to be the Democrats.

              This is going to get uglier and the Democrats won't avoid rolling in the mud with Trump who obviously relishes the opportunity to do so.
              Well......the people sent Trump to DC to drain the swamp. There is a good possibility that this will help do it.
              "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                I would add, that like Clinton's case, it will hurt the Democrats in the next election. Worse, it will set precedent for the next time one party wants to pillory the other. It's a case of Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.
                Well, all those who are worried about precedents should decide if they worry more about setting a precedent for increasing the presidential powers or a precedent for increasing the Congressional powers. I say this because an acquittal will ALSO set the precedent that a president can use his office to extract election benefits against his potential political opponent and he can get away with it as long as he is not stupid enough to clearly articulate that he offers a quid pro quo in exchange for getting some partisan advantage. In other words, the outcome in the senate will set a precedent one way or another.

                And if your prediction is true and the impeachment does harm the democrats in the 2020 election, then this can be used to deter future attempts to impeach a president. The danger of setting a precedent of future excessive Congressional (House) conduct will apply ONLY if Trump actually loses the election and House Democrats are vindicated in the 2020 elections.

                . And in THAT case, I will still choose a precedent that increases the leverage of the government's branch which all conservatives claim that it has lost much of its power to the executive branch. The alternative of choosing a precedent that gives even more power to an already powerful president is worse.
                Last edited by pamak; 05 Dec 19, 18:53.
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  I saw it coming and it's bad news for the Democrats. Trump is taking ownership of the impeachment. He's making it his issue. Worse, when it goes to the Senate for trial, which is looking likely, the Republicans will control the floor. It will be the Democrat's turn in the box and it's not looking good.

                  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp

                  Let's say Trump does subpoena Joe Biden to testify. How's that going to look? Or, he forces Adam Schiff to testify right after subpoenaing and making the whistleblower testify? Can you imagine Pelosi stammering her way through testimony if called? It certainly looks as if John Kerry, Joe Biden, and Hunter Biden will all get a turn in the box and be called to testify. Linsey Graham has already started requesting documents from State and such about Kerry and Biden's role in Ukraine.
                  While I'm not sure who will have more dirt turned up when the shovel is applied, if past history is any indicator, it's going to be the Democrats.

                  This is going to get uglier and the Democrats won't avoid rolling in the mud with Trump who obviously relishes the opportunity to do so.

                  Can Rep Adam Schiff or anyone else refuse to testify and ignore the subpoena?


                  "Never argue with an idiot. They'll just drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience" George Carlin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                    And if the House impeaches him, it goes to the Senate for a trial. Everything I proposed above has a real chance of occurring if it does. How's that going to play out?
                    What we may see is the impeachment dropped in favor of a motion of censure being passed. The Republican dominated senate may not want to be seen as hanging in the President's wind, given their history as a legislative , independent foro the executive, decision making body.
                    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I can't see the dems taking a bow over the impeachment, their base are too inflamed to let this pass.
                      Credo quia absurdum.


                      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Reimnitz View Post
                        Can Rep Adam Schiff or anyone else refuse to testify and ignore the subpoena?
                        The answer is no, not really. The only persons that can refuse to honor a subpoena are those that are appointed on the executive branch due to separation of powers and executive privilege. A Congressman can't ignore a subpoena from Congress. Private persons can refuse to testify but must show up (eg., Lois Learner).

                        Government employees must show up and must testify as this is part of their employment contract.

                        So, the Republicans could call Schiff, Pelosi, et. al., to testify. They might allow Trump to do it in his own defense too. The whistleblower's only out would be to resign and take the Fifth.

                        As for what the Senate will do... I think the harder the Democrats push this, and the less favorable it is to the public, or the more obvious their case is built on the quicksand of hearsay and opinion, the more likely it is they will hold a trial just to trot out the opposing side and position in full. If-- and it's a quirky if-- the Republicans were to do so and they bring in a bunch of witnesses and others to testify and those people make a laughing stock of the Democrat charges, the Democrats lose big time.
                        Worse, the Republicans can easily make their trial look far more fair by allowing the Democrats to call whoever they want with few or no restrictions. After all, who can they call after the House investigation that hasn't been called?

                        The other option is the Republicans move to dismiss immediately. The danger there is it will go down as purely partisan too. They could move to censure the President (a largely meaningless political move) and that gives them a way out saying the charges are serious but don't rise to impeachable.

                        Whatever the outcome, Trump isn't going to be turned out of office and he will I can almost guarantee, will wear the whole thing like a badge of honor as he campaigns.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If pushing impeachment is the hill that Pelosi wants to die on, it may inflame all the silent Trump-supporters and fence-sitters and bite the Dems in the ass in November 2020.
                          Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                          Prayers.

                          BoRG

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                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                            The answer is no, not really. The only persons that can refuse to honor a subpoena are those that are appointed on the executive branch due to separation of powers and executive privilege. A Congressman can't ignore a subpoena from Congress. Private persons can refuse to testify but must show up (eg., Lois Learner).

                            Government employees must show up and must testify as this is part of their employment contract.

                            So, the Republicans could call Schiff, Pelosi, et. al., to testify. They might allow Trump to do it in his own defense too. The whistleblower's only out would be to resign and take the Fifth.

                            As for what the Senate will do... I think the harder the Democrats push this, and the less favorable it is to the public, or the more obvious their case is built on the quicksand of hearsay and opinion, the more likely it is they will hold a trial just to trot out the opposing side and position in full. If-- and it's a quirky if-- the Republicans were to do so and they bring in a bunch of witnesses and others to testify and those people make a laughing stock of the Democrat charges, the Democrats lose big time.
                            Worse, the Republicans can easily make their trial look far more fair by allowing the Democrats to call whoever they want with few or no restrictions. After all, who can they call after the House investigation that hasn't been called?

                            The other option is the Republicans move to dismiss immediately. The danger there is it will go down as purely partisan too. They could move to censure the President (a largely meaningless political move) and that gives them a way out saying the charges are serious but don't rise to impeachable.

                            Whatever the outcome, Trump isn't going to be turned out of office and he will I can almost guarantee, will wear the whole thing like a badge of honor as he campaigns.
                            The question is not that easy to answer. One needs to see the Senate rules and how they apply to members of the other chamber's different committees (and each committee has its own rules apparently)

                            Here is a link

                            https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44247.pdf

                            Knock yourself out trying to find the answer, and when you do, post the related quotes here for discussion.


                            Anyway, even if we assume that one chamber can make a chairman from the opposite chamber come and testify, I doubt that anybody will have the stomach to do it considering that the chairman in the other chamber can play the same game. It is like the MAD concept during the cold war, lolol
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                              If pushing impeachment is the hill that Pelosi wants to die on, it may inflame all the silent Trump-supporters and fence-sitters and bite the Dems in the ass in November 2020.
                              According to what I hear from Trump's supporters here, even before the impeachment, Trump had enough support to win the next election. So, according to their theory, if Trump wins in 2020, it will be despite the impeachment and not because of it.
                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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