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  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    That is certainly part of what is going on here. English colonies are by and large more successful than continental. What I attribute to nepotism could be thought of as less flexible social mobility and a more class oriented legal system.
    "Dutch" colonies were quite succesful at first, but they were "swamped" by larger numbers of "German", "French" and "English" colonists.

    Spanish colonies in the South are different yet again.

    On top of that there was influx from Africa, and of course mixing with the remnants of the indigenous people….

    But I doubt all those cultural differences would coincide with the current Mexican border, at least it would surprise me if they did

    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    Even if you look at the southern European countries that are traditionally orthodox or Catholic such as Greece, Spain and Italy you can see a similarity with Mexico. There are a variety of reasons including a passivity in the peasantry, higher levels of nepotism, a more rigid class structure, and a slower daily routine. The French are an outlier sharing many of the same characteristics traditionally as the other orthodox or Catholic southern counties but it is more economically successful. While France may have a more vibrant economy it's former colonies such as Haiti or Guyana are some of the poorest in the New World completing the pattern.
    That's the German/Latin "divide" I was talking about yes, sometimes it coincides with the Catholic/Protestant "divide" but certainly not always...

    Generally the first is much older than the second.

    It's remarkable that much of the criticism I hear from US towards Mexico is similar to criticism from Flanders towards Wallonia/Brussels, or Germans towards Greeks for example….

    And it's not constant either, when you start reading 12th century texts, for instance, you see the French(Franks) looking down on Normans and Germans, they had a sense of "national exceptionalism" pretty much before anyone else here did.

    And in pre-Roman times of course, there were really only Greeks and "barbarians"
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 05 Dec 19, 06:03.

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  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Mexico is a waste of space, BUILD THE WALL!
    They don't even have a functional waste water system! Look it up.

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  • Phaing
    replied
    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
    America is already a mixture of socialism and capitalism. ...
    The Mexican people will not accept the American way of doing things, and I think we all know that.
    I don't know if what works for some very insular little white countries up around the Arctic circle would work for them, either. I think it could be worth a shot, but then you run into the cultural barriers that keep the US model from being accepted.

    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
    Even then, no one is calling for the whole government to be overthrown and turn into a socialist country. That's ridiculous. But that's what some people are taught by certain people in media.
    I think you could find a whole bunch of undocumented refugees here who would call for that. And it would be more than an army of them, it would be a Horde.

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  • inevtiab1e
    replied
    Originally posted by Phaing View Post

    A Socialist Government is your answer? It would have to be something very different from what has been letting Brazil down, and Argentine, and Venezuela.
    America is already a mixture of socialism and capitalism. That's not going to change.
    When people refer to democratic socialism, think Norway, Sweden, etc. Not Venezuela. There's differences.
    Even then, no one is calling for the whole government to be overthrown and turn into a socialist country. That's ridiculous. But that's what some people are taught by certain people in media.


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  • inevtiab1e
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    Do any of us believe that the NSA hackers can't find those banks?
    You should ask, why are you asking me? Why do you think sanctions are so powerful?

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  • Phaing
    replied
    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
    Weren't they Mexican citizens? I disagree that the cartels and violence are worse now than ever.
    For a little while this topic caught national attention because all the victims were white and blond, and that attention should have been capitalized on while it lasted. I was not kidding about Mass Graves, the Cartels have killed tens of thousands of Mexicans in the last 20 years, all of who's lives were just as important as the latest victims.
    This could have been used as leverage, but it is already forgotten.

    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
    Too close to home based on mileage? Irrelevant. The capitalist Mexican government is completely corrupt. Same goes for the federales and local police forces.
    When criminal cartels are the rulers then it is safe to say that everything is corrupt and a full reset is the only cure.



    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
    Other presidents have tried, not much you can do. If you're worried about America, you should have been against the wall and putting money towards technology and more agents instead.
    I mentioned that in reply to the article that said that closing the border is how you kill the Cartels.
    I don't think a wall can close a 2,000 miles border, it makes no sense to me, but I would be in favor of it OR your high-tech or whatever else you have, if it could work.
    But I don't see how it can.

    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
    One technique that could work is finding the banking institutions cartels use to store cash. You could freeze that cash if found. But the US can't get Mexico to release that information. Goes back to corruption.
    And back to a full reset.... in a land where the concept of a meritocracy has no tradition or history of acceptance.

    A Socialist Government is your answer? It would have to be something very different from what has been letting Brazil down, and Argentine, and Venezuela.

    When I was a kid I heard a lot of Democrats trying to warn Bush; "Democracy is too high a concept for the Arabs and Afghans, it won't work there" and they were right.
    How high a concept can work in Latin America?

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    If we hack the cartel banks and take their money, it costs nothing. Or we could just destroy the cocaine and marijuana crops. We have been to the Moon and sent surveyors to Mars, but we cant solve a simple problem like this?

    All we have to do is declare war on Mexico and give them a day or two to surrender or be completely overrun. We have more than enough justification.
    A military occupation isn't going to happen.

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  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    How does all of this relate to a gang murder of Mormon women and children. After all, Mexico was "civilized" long before North America was.

    As for English colonies, hmm...I seem to remember a place called Roanoke.

    As for "continental" colonies, millions of South Americans who now speak Spanish and are Catholic will disagree with you about the success aspect. And the Canadians would like to talk to you about the French success in their region. Meanwhile, the Pilgrims were starving until the local Amerinds helped them.

    "Success" is a very relative term, even when it is "by and large". The British lost the entire colony of America because they did a terrible job of governing it. I'm sure when the world wars rolled around that they wished they hadn't.
    Granted success is subjective but we were talking relative economic success.

    Even if you look at the southern European countries that are traditionally orthodox or Catholic such as Greece, Spain and Italy you can see a similarity with Mexico. There are a variety of reasons including a passivity in the peasantry, higher levels of nepotism, a more rigid class structure, and a slower daily routine. The French are an outlier sharing many of the same characteristics traditionally as the other orthodox or Catholic southern counties but it is more economically successful. While France may have a more vibrant economy it's former colonies such as Haiti or Guyana are some of the poorest in the New World completing the pattern.

    The reason the discussion moved to a discussion of culture is because to find a cure you need to diagnose the disease.

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  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    How much would it cost to fix Mexico. When does the piggy bank get emptied.
    If we hack the cartel banks and take their money, it costs nothing. Or we could just destroy the cocaine and marijuana crops. We have been to the Moon and sent surveyors to Mars, but we cant solve a simple problem like this?

    All we have to do is declare war on Mexico and give them a day or two to surrender or be completely overrun. We have more than enough justification.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
    Weren't they Mexican citizens? I disagree that the cartels and violence are worse now than ever.

    Too close to home based on mileage? Irrelevant. The capitalist Mexican government is completely corrupt. Same goes for the federales and local police forces.

    Other presidents have tried, not much you can do. If you're worried about America, you should have been against the wall and putting money towards technology and more agents instead.

    One technique that could work is finding the banking institutions cartels use to store cash. You could freeze that cash if found. But the US can't get Mexico to release that information. Goes back to corruption.
    Do any of us believe that the NSA hackers can't find those banks?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    How does all of this relate to a gang murder of Mormon women and children. After all, Mexico was "civilized" long before North America was.

    As for English colonies, hmm...I seem to remember a place called Roanoke.

    As for "continental" colonies, millions of South Americans who now speak Spanish and are Catholic will disagree with you about the success aspect. And the Canadians would like to talk to you about the French success in their region. Meanwhile, the Pilgrims were starving until the local Amerinds helped them.

    "Success" is a very relative term, even when it is "by and large". The British lost the entire colony of America because they did a terrible job of governing it. I'm sure when the world wars rolled around that they wished they hadn't.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    And where exactly runs this "cultural divide" then, certainly it's not the current national border is it ? That's barely two centuries old…?

    If such a cultural difference exists, presumably it is to be found in the US itself.

    What interests me is the "echo" in all this of the old European cultural "divide" between Catholics and Protestants (Belgian/Dutch border), and "German/Latin" cultural border (Flanders/Wallonia)….

    Could it be then, the "cultural divide" you perceive did not originate in the New World, but travelled with your ancestors on the boats from Europe already ?
    That is certainly part of what is going on here. English colonies are by and large more successful than continental. What I attribute to nepotism could be thought of as less flexible social mobility and a more class oriented legal system.

    Leave a comment:


  • inevtiab1e
    replied
    Originally posted by Phaing View Post
    It seems that everyone is doing their best to forget the three mothers and their six children who were butchered in Mexico a few weeks ago.
    Shame.


    it is from eight years ago, and it probably would not have been made if not for the 2012 elections, but it is amazing how it shows what has been going on down there.
    It is only getting worse.
    I know the trend is getting out of international responsibilities but.... isn't this a little too close to home?
    Isn't it time to DO something about this?

    Mexico has an army, and so do we. Aren't we allies?
    Weren't they Mexican citizens? I disagree that the cartels and violence are worse now than ever.

    Too close to home based on mileage? Irrelevant. The capitalist Mexican government is completely corrupt. Same goes for the federales and local police forces.

    Other presidents have tried, not much you can do. If you're worried about America, you should have been against the wall and putting money towards technology and more agents instead.

    One technique that could work is finding the banking institutions cartels use to store cash. You could freeze that cash if found. But the US can't get Mexico to release that information. Goes back to corruption.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    The fundamental difference between Mexico and the U.S. is Mexico evolved a culture of individual selection while the U.S. like Europe evolved a culture of group selection.
    And where exactly runs this "cultural divide" then, certainly it's not the current national border is it ? That's barely two centuries old…?

    If such a cultural difference exists, presumably it is to be found in the US itself.

    What interests me is the "echo" in all this of the old European cultural "divide" between Catholics and Protestants (Belgian/Dutch border), and "German/Latin" cultural border (Flanders/Wallonia)….

    Could it be then, the "cultural divide" you perceive did not originate in the New World, but travelled with your ancestors on the boats from Europe already ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Phaing
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    How much would it cost to fix Mexico. When does the piggy bank get emptied.
    How much does Cali spend every year as it is, or the nations as a whole?

    What will the cost be of a Darfur on our Doorstep?

    Leave a comment:

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