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  • Mormons in Mexico

    It seems that everyone is doing their best to forget the three mothers and their six children who were butchered in Mexico a few weeks ago.
    Shame.

    I have not, and I dug this up.




    it is from eight years ago, and it probably would not have been made if not for the 2012 elections, but it is amazing how it shows what has been going on down there.
    It is only getting worse.
    I know the trend is getting out of international responsibilities but.... isn't this a little too close to home?
    Isn't it time to DO something about this?

    Mexico has an army, and so do we. Aren't we allies?

  • #2
    I agree that we should be doing something and, to Trump’s credit, he is talking about declaring the cartels terrorist organizations.
    But we cannot use our army in Mexico without leave of the Mexican government.
    And, given the extent of the corruption in the Mexican government (or fear of the cartels) it is doubtful it will ever agree to let us attack the cartels.

    The Mexican army seems to be overmatched by the cartel troops.

    Last Thursday in the city of Culiacan, the capital of Sinaloa state, a battle eruptedbetween government forces and drug cartel gunmen after the Mexican military captured two sons of jailed drug kingpin Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman. The elder son, Ivan, was quickly freed by his men, who overpowered government forces and secured his release. Ivan then launched an all-out siege of the entire city in an effort to free his younger brother, Ovidio.
    The eight-hour battle ended when government forces, outgunned and surrounded, without reinforcements or a way to retreat, received an order directly from Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador to release their prisoner and surrender.


    https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/21...ary-in-battle/
    Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

    Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
      I agree that we should be doing something and, to Trump’s credit, he is talking about declaring the cartels terrorist organizations.
      But we cannot use our army in Mexico without leave of the Mexican government.
      Sure we can! We did it in 1845 and again in 1915. We don't need no stinkin' badges to do it either.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

        Sure we can! We did it in 1845 and again in 1915. We don't need no stinkin' badges to do it either.
        Short term solution?
        We hunt the hunters

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

          Sure we can! We did it in 1845 and again in 1915. We don't need no stinkin' badges to do it either.


          Ok, but this time we should keep the beach resorts.
          Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

          Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

            Short term solution?
            We had two chances to make it a long-term solution.
            The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

              Short term solution?
              It would cut way down on illegal immigration...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post

                We had two chances to make it a long-term solution.
                Third time's a charm they say!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
                  I agree that we should be doing something and, to Trump’s credit, he is talking about declaring the cartels terrorist organizations.
                  But we cannot use our army in Mexico without leave of the Mexican government.
                  And, given the extent of the corruption in the Mexican government (or fear of the cartels) it is doubtful it will ever agree to let us attack the cartels.

                  The Mexican army seems to be overmatched by the cartel troops.

                  Last Thursday in the city of Culiacan, the capital of Sinaloa state, a battle eruptedbetween government forces and drug cartel gunmen after the Mexican military captured two sons of jailed drug kingpin Joaquin “El Chapo” Guzman. The elder son, Ivan, was quickly freed by his men, who overpowered government forces and secured his release. Ivan then launched an all-out siege of the entire city in an effort to free his younger brother, Ovidio.
                  The eight-hour battle ended when government forces, outgunned and surrounded, without reinforcements or a way to retreat, received an order directly from Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador to release their prisoner and surrender.


                  https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/21...ary-in-battle/
                  Here is the end of that article -



                  Historically, insurgent and secessionist movements have bedeviled Mexico from its very beginnings. Civil wars and rebellions were endemic in Mexico throughout much of the 19th century, ceasing only with the Porfiriato and resuming with its collapse in 1910.

                  What’s different today is that Mexico, despite its corrupt and incompetent government, has a rising middle class and a growing economy. Unlike the Mexican state, the Mexican people have shown themselves to be more than capable of industrious and liberal self-government, not just in the success millions of them have achieved in the United States but also in the success of local governments throughout the country.

                  Set against the Mexican people is a Mexican state incapable of governing and a cartel insurgency that now controls vast swaths of both territory and industry. President Lopez Obrador will not push back on the cartels. He has never said a bad word about El Chapo or the Sinaloa Cartel, and even campaigned for cartel amnestyin 2017, but he does have a long history of associating his political rivals with organized crime.

                  He has said he wants to tackle the “root causes” of crime and violence, which he has said are poverty and lack of opportunity, and campaigned for president on slogans such as “hugs, not gunshots,” and “you can’t fight fire with fire.” In short, Lopez Obrador is not the man to rescue Mexico from the unfolding crisis.

                  The idea that a nation of 120 million people with whom the United States shares a 2,000-mile border and ever-increasing economic ties might spiral into collapse has not seriously occurred to the American people. We’ve had a century of relative peace on our southwest border, and aside from dealing with an occasional surge of illegal immigration, we have assumed that it will continue. It will not.

                  Culiacan should be a wake-up call that the war now underway in Mexico will not stay there, and that we’d better start thinking about what that will mean for America.
                  US intervention there could only be a good thing.
                  Mexico is a Failed State in every sense of the word and is intimately linked with us. People are fond of saying that if the USA sneezes, Canada catches a cold. So, what about what can happen to the USA with Mexico dying of leprosy right in front of us?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Phaing View Post

                    Here is the end of that article -





                    US intervention there could only be a good thing.
                    Mexico is a Failed State in every sense of the word and is intimately linked with us. People are fond of saying that if the USA sneezes, Canada catches a cold. So, what about what can happen to the USA with Mexico dying of leprosy right in front of us?
                    I agree intervention may become necessary.
                    It is in our own national interests and Mexico's interests that we do something, but how likely are the mexican people to agree with that?


                    However, are we willing to accept the fact that the cartels will respond in a far more brutal fashion?
                    We would limit ourselves to miliatary targets, but, as we have seen, they will brutally kill women and children just for the terror.

                    I think the following opinion piece raised some good questions.
                    https://townhall.com/columnists/kurt...-like-n2557274
                    Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                    Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
                      ...

                      I think the following opinion piece raised some good questions.
                      https://townhall.com/columnists/kurt...-like-n2557274
                      I don't agree with a lot of what that guy says, but this does make me think;


                      America has a whole bunch of peerless killers and death machines – including Conan the jihadi-neutering hero dog – but it’s not clear any of that matters here. Our political class has its own interests in ethnic politics and cheap foreign labor that prevents the most obvious of anti-cartel actions: cut off their drug money by seriously enforcing the border. But no matter how many Mexican students end up beheaded with chainsaws on video, and no matter how many Americans are murdered, there is no way the Democrats and the corporate GOP would ever stand for a real border. Combine that with the currently fashionable baloney about the “War on Drugs” and you know that even as Americas troops fought it out with bullets, their country would be utterly unwilling and unable to do the one thing that might actually crush the cartels.
                      I get it, cut the cartels off from the money, and they fall apart. They lose their attraction, their influence, and they become very easy to infiltrate.

                      But, it is possible to close the border, at all? We trade with Mexico and at any given moment there are thousands of Americans on Mexican beaches.... and lets not forget 2,000 miles of borders without any natural obstacles.
                      There is also the Gulf of Mexico, where there are many Mexican iol rigs and tons of small boats.
                      That one great solution of his seems like a fantasy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It all seems strangely reminiscent of medieval Europe. War Lords then just got better press.

                        Civilization does appear cyclic. Convergent evolution is not just a feature of biological but also culture. The constant in which the cultural environment evolves must be human biology. We see the same historical patterns from China to Scandinavia.

                        Like all species that out grow their environment we seem destined for a population crash. We seem unable to rationally control our reproduction or our violence. Even in the West where population growth has slowed and violence is minimal it seems social epistasis amplification not rationally is the driving force.

                        Mexico seems to be the product of the worst aspects of two cultures. The nepotism of the Spanish and passive acceptance of violence from the Aztecs. Living proof that two great civilizations merged does not a better cake make.
                        We hunt the hunters

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          At the opening of that video in the OP Romney says "America must take responsibility for the drug war going on in throughout Hispanic countries..."

                          No, Hispanic countries need to take responsibility for the drug cartels, criminal drug rings, and related criminals that infest them. This isn't a "US" problem, but rather a problem with Hispanic countries being corrupt, socially backwards, economic basket cases due mainly to Socialism, and other internal problems.

                          If, indeed, it is a US problem, then we should send in the military and crush the cartels, replace the corrupt governments, and if necessary occupy these countries for decades until they aren't the $h!+holes they are today.

                          I'll also say watching that video that we (America) must have some really stupid f***s in the DoJ to even consider running an operation like Fast and Furious. That has to be the most idiotic idea anyone has come up within at least a century.
                          Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 02 Dec 19, 21:08.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                            It all seems strangely reminiscent of medieval Europe. War Lords then just got better press.

                            Civilization does appear cyclic. Convergent evolution is not just a feature of biological but also culture. The constant in which the cultural environment evolves must be human biology. We see the same historical patterns from China to Scandinavia.

                            Like all species that out grow their environment we seem destined for a population crash. We seem unable to rationally control our reproduction or our violence. Even in the West where population growth has slowed and violence is minimal it seems social epistasis amplification not rationally is the driving force.

                            Mexico seems to be the product of the worst aspects of two cultures. The nepotism of the Spanish and passive acceptance of violence from the Aztecs. Living proof that two great civilizations merged does not a better cake make.
                            Be sure and let us know what happens at the end of your journey into the heart of darkness, but I won't be going with you.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              At the opening of that video in the OP Romney says "America must take responsibility for the drug war going on in throughout Hispanic countries..."

                              No, Hispanic countries need to take responsibility for the drug cartels, criminal drug rings, and related criminals that infest them. This isn't a "US" problem, but rather a problem with Hispanic countries being corrupt, socially backwards, economic basket cases due mainly to Socialism, and other internal problems.

                              If, indeed, it is a US problem, then we should send in the military and crush the cartels, replace the corrupt governments, and if necessary occupy these countries for decades until they aren't the $h!+holes they are today.

                              I'll also say watching that video that we (America) must have some really stupid f***s in the DoJ to even consider running an operation like Fast and Furious. That has to be the most idiotic idea anyone has come up within at least a century.
                              You mean, go in there and re-make the place like we did in Japan and Germany after WW2?

                              Sounds expensive, and like several Presidents would have to follow the same policy over several decades. When was the last time that ever happened?

                              The point is, drugs go north over the border, and American dollars and guns come back south. Cut that off, and the Cartels are crippled.

                              How about a war of messages? People are not very well informed about how bad it really is down there, so why not make it a meme that goes viral?
                              Make sure that everyone in the US knows that when they do drugs they are supporting mass-murders and terrorism right across the border. Condemn them and the Cartels everywhere from Saturday Night Live to Russian blog-bots (the mercenaries of the internet) and turn the entire world against them.

                              Even I can give it a try;

                              Some slogans for Tourism;
                              "Mexico; as failed states go, it ain't that bad!"
                              "Much more fun than Somalia!"

                              Recruiting slogan for the Cartels; "They can't call it a cult if Satan worships us!"
                              or;
                              "You favorite source of Cocaine; we also fill more mass-graves than the German Army!"


                              I think you will see the pressure, real and imagined, from a project like that will crush them within a couple of years. All you would have to do is get Hollywood and D.C. on the same side. That was how it was for WW2.

                              Comment

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