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  • #46
    Originally posted by pamak View Post

    Those who read can see the links that I cited in my posts. The links of the press conference and the independent report of the protest events in Charlottesville were no written by me. I am not interested in you as a person. I am only interested in your claims, and I explained why their reasoning is wrong. If you constantly feel that I try to humiliate you with my retort, it is not my problem.
    You do that a lot...put your biases off on to others and them claim to be righteous. In act, your statements and claims are no more vlid on this forum than those of anyone else, including the TDS's and otherwise reality-challenged.

    If you wish your views to be respected, you start by respecting those of others.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by pamak View Post

      You missed his press conference when he SPECIFICALLY mentioned the fine people of the night parade...

      https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings...nfrastructure/

      Q Who are the good people?

      Q Sir, I just didn’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? I just don’t understand what you were saying.

      THE PRESIDENT: No, no. There were people in that rally — and I looked the night before — if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people — neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.

      But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest — because I don’t know if you know, they had a permit.The other group didn’t have a permit. So I only tell you this: There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country — a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.


      And he was lying also to protect his neonazi fans because the night torch parade did not have a permit...

      The report which I have posted in this forum (see previous post) tells this clearly..

      From the report


      https://www.huntonak.com/images/cont...iant-ready.pdf

      FINAL REPORT

      INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF THE 2017 PROTEST EVENTS IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA


      ...

      To conceal their planning efforts, Kessler, Richard Spencer, and other Unite The Right organizers used Discord, an application that allows confidential communications in private chat rooms. As indicated above, a Unite The Right planning document shared on Discord was made public on August 16, 2017.282 The document reveals that a core group began planning for August 11 as early as June 6, and finished planning on August 10. The final planning document, entitled “Operation Unite The Right Charlottesville 2.0”, stated, in relevant part:

      The Torchlit rally will be at the Jefferson Monument near the UVA campus on Friday the 11th under cover of darkness. We will meet at 2130 in “Nameless Field” and march with our torches lit to the monument. Each person should bring their own torches which can be brought from a local Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Tiki Torches are fine. Once on the grounds of the monument a speech will be given, we do some chants, then sing dixie, then put out the torches. We will return to “Nameless Field” and back to our cars.


      The section also emphasized that attendees should not “mention this torchlight beforehand outside of extremely vetted circles,” and should not “post about [the torchlight event] on social media until after.”284

      Good people would not be aware of that night torch parade and would not participate
      I don't see any lying, but I see a lot of bias and distortion in your statements. You see what you want to see, not what is there.

      You might spend some time reading the Constitution before criticizing anyone who publicly supports it, as this man clearly did.

      Meanwhile, you are what some might refer to as a right-wingnut.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        You do that a lot...put your biases off on to others and them claim to be righteous. In act, your statements and claims are no more vlid on this forum than those of anyone else, including the TDS's and otherwise reality-challenged.

        If you wish your views to be respected, you start by respecting those of others.
        Again, do me a favor and direct your comments to the links I posted in my posts. I already posted two things with back up evidence from official WH transcripts and independent reports :

        1 Trump's press conference in which he clearly talked about the "good people" in the night torch parade

        2. An independent review of the protests (which was ordered by the city) which reveals that the night torch parade di not have a permit and in fact it was kept secret from the public since it was discussed only within extremist internet forums.

        Trump saw the same video everybody saw and still somehow saw "good people" there carrying torches . And he tried to equate the group of neonazis in that night torch parade to the group of counter-protesters the next day just because the latter included also some Antifas among them.

        Sorry, not all views should be respected. Some views should be attacked relentlessly. False equivalency of group identities in which one side is clearly predominantly neonazis is among those views which I detest.
        Last edited by pamak; 30 Nov 19, 12:57.
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

        Comment


        • #49
          A list of attendees for the night march organised that Trump said had 'very fine people' in it.

          ​​​​​

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

            No, his point is well taken.
            You are arguing that trump's statement included the KKK because it was so broad. But then when it is pointed out that YOUR logic means he meant the same thing about antifa you dismiss it.
            Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You don't get to selectively interpret his words so that they only support your conclusions.
            Logic dictates that your interpretation be applied equally.
            Nah he specifically mentioned the Friday night rally, and that was the white supremacist rally.

            But I concede to your imaginery made up point..... There are undoubtedly some very fine people on the Antifa side.



            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
              No. You need not enact laws in order to be a white supremacist, but a "white supremacist" party that fails to enact anything remotely supportive of a white supremacist position isn't very effective in accomplishing its goals.
              An ineffective white supremacist is still a white supremacist. Their effectiveness is a separate argument from what they are.

              Since the person I was responding to is unable to read minds, we must judge the goals of the people he has condemned by their actions.
              Their actions, their words, their expressed attitudes. Again, bearing in mind as you admit yourself, enacting racist laws isn't the only way to express racism. Thus we have to analyze more than just the laws they set forth.

              If there are no racist actions, then he really has no evidence on which to base his charge of racism. In other words, it is his prejudices that are obvious, not theirs.
              How many white supremacist groups align with democrats? How many align with republicans?

              Why have so many white supremacists and KKK members labeled Trump as their own and someone that's aligned with their cause?

              Why do the majority of white conservatives state they prefer to live among white neighbors? Why does the race of their neighbors matter to them?

              Why are they, specifically the Trump admin, curtailing legal immigration?

              Why did 56,000 voters in Illinois cast their vote for a self-proclaimed neo nazi? (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ki/1918933002/)

              Why are white conservatives staging and executing mass attacks against minorities?

              We can go on and on for days. The accusation of this being the party for white supremacists isn't something that was born out of thin air. The accusation is based on your actions, rhetoric, surveys and common sense.

              As I think about this, I would pose a serious question to you. I have read in the past that the government program of welfare effectively destroyed the black family unit. (forgive me for not having citations) The analysis I read, pointed out that in the 1950s, the black family unit (nuclear family) was stronger than that of whites. Then, welfare came along and gave money to families where fathers were absent. (When you want more of something subsidize it) After that, the black family unit largely disappeared.
              The alleged ramifications of subsidizing the absence of fathers have arguably been devastating to the black community and yet, the dems continue to promise more of the same. In light of that, do you think it could be reasonably argued that the consequences of dems policies are actually racist in result?
              Certainly. I have never excused the democratic party for what they've done and continue to do to the black community.

              Are you saying that white men are inherently racist? Are you implying that some races are inherently more Devine than others?
              That is kind of an ironic accusation when calling others racist, don't you think?
              Me specifically? I don't know what quote of mine you're referencing to even ask that. My belief is that we are all human, thus we are all flawed in different ways. That doesn't make one race more divine than another, that makes us equal.
              "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
              - Benjamin Franklin

              The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Jutland View Post
                A list of attendees for the night march organised that Trump said had 'very fine people' in it.

                ​​​​​
                If you're going to take Trump LITERALLY on everything he say, then you must take him literally on EVERYTHING he say. You can't pick apart his words and use just what suits you.



                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Nikki View Post

                  If you're going to take Trump LITERALLY on everything he say, then you must take him literally on EVERYTHING he say. You can't pick apart his words and use just what suits you.


                  AMEN.
                  Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                  Prayers.

                  BoRG

                  http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                    An ineffective white supremacist is still a white supremacist. Their effectiveness is a separate argument from what they are.



                    Their actions, their words, their expressed attitudes. Again, bearing in mind as you admit yourself, enacting racist laws isn't the only way to express racism. Thus we have to analyze more than just the laws they set forth.



                    How many white supremacist groups align with democrats? How many align with republicans?

                    Why have so many white supremacists and KKK members labeled Trump as their own and someone that's aligned with their cause?

                    Why do the majority of white conservatives state they prefer to live among white neighbors? Why does the race of their neighbors matter to them?

                    Why are they, specifically the Trump admin, curtailing legal immigration?

                    Why did 56,000 voters in Illinois cast their vote for a self-proclaimed neo nazi? (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ki/1918933002/)

                    Why are white conservatives staging and executing mass attacks against minorities?

                    We can go on and on for days. The accusation of this being the party for white supremacists isn't something that was born out of thin air. The accusation is based on your actions, rhetoric, surveys and common sense.



                    Certainly. I have never excused the democratic party for what they've done and continue to do to the black community.



                    Me specifically? I don't know what quote of mine you're referencing to even ask that. My belief is that we are all human, thus we are all flawed in different ways. That doesn't make one race more divine than another, that makes us equal.


                    My point about enacting racist laws has to do with 2 things.
                    1) Actual proof of racism, as opposed to just what the dems say about them and
                    2) the impact of the alleged racism.

                    As to my first point, you say that the allegation of racism isn't "born out of thin" air and yet there are no actions that would give proof of actual racism. We only have allegations from the left, or, as is the case with the statement of trump at issue here, convoluted (and inconsistent) explanations of why his seemingly vague statement is an specific endorsement of racism.

                    I think you make a reasonable point about white racist groups gravitating towards republicans, but if the issue is simply racism, then we must also consider why minority racist organizations gravitate to the dems.
                    (BLM, BAMN, La Raza) To say nothing of openly racist major players in the dem party. ( louis Farrakhan, jesse Jackson, al shaprton) I would submit that the racist groups on either side feel that they will be welcomed by their party of choice. But the fact that the racists gravitate to one side or the other isn't proof that the party they lean towards is racist. Proof of such racism is best found in the actions of the political organization
                    . And, as seems clear, no one can point to actually racist laws or policies of the GOP.

                    One party openly welcomes racists, the other doesn't. And the one that is open about it is not the GOP.

                    As to my second point, if the racism has no impact on anyone, how can we know that the racism exists, unless we are simply assuming it? None of us know all the dark inner thoughts of politicians but if they keep it under wraps and those dark thoughts have no impact on anyone, how can we really complain about them or claim those undisclosed dark thoughts exist?

                    Illinois is a deep blue state, your own article includes statements by GOP Senator Cruz and the former GOP gov. of Illinois urging people to vote for the democratic candidate over that guy. It would seem the GOP took a firm stance against the guy, who only got in because the GOP didn't field a candidate. So, it would seem the evidence supports that the GOP doesn't welcome racists. Or at least openly rejected that racist.

                    To be honest, I really have no idea what you mean by: "
                    white conservatives staging and executing mass attacks against minorities?"




                    When you point out that the "majority of the party is white men", my assumption is that you are suggesting that alone is proof of racism. Which implies that white men are inherently racist and other races are not.

                    Why is the curtailment of legal immigration racist?
                    Even VOX didn't allege it was racist.
                    https://www.vox.com/2019/10/9/209035...alth-insurance
                    Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                    Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                      ...



                      Their actions, their words, their expressed attitudes. Again, bearing in mind as you admit yourself, enacting racist laws isn't the only way to express racism. Thus we have to analyze more than just the laws they set forth.

                      .
                      You are 100% correct but when people want to defend Trump's statements they want to make everybody stop thinking:

                      And actually there is a way to get clues from the legal system also regarding the effect of racism in people's lives. The ATTEMPT to legislate and enforce laws that dis-proportionatelly affect minorities is there. Just because many such laws do not survive legal scrutiny does not absolve the legislation or executive branches at federal, state and local level which passed such laws.

                      And even when such laws are eventually withdrawn, there are still consequences from their implementation until the judicial branch steps in. We have many cases of attempts to suppress black votes and elections which were actually conducted based on such laws until the supreme court stepped in (often after the election). We have police officers involved in racial profiling and who were pardoned by Trump.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Joe_Arpaio

                      On August 25, 2017, President Donald Trump pardoned Joe Arpaio for criminal contempt of court, a misdemeanor.[1] Arpaio had been convicted of the crime two months earlier for disobeying a federal judge's order to stop racial profiling in detaining "individuals suspected of being in the U.S. illegally".[2][3] The pardon covered Arpaio's conviction and "any other offenses under Chapter 21 of Title 18, United States Code that might arise, or be charged, in connection with Melendres v. Arpaio."[4]

                      There is no doubt that democrats are not innocent either. Bloomberg's stop and frisk policy is a classic example, but the difference is that for a Democrat to get the nomination of his party, he needs to publicly reject such conduct (and Bloomberg just had to apologize for that policy ) while in the GOP the constituent and its press does not pay much attention to such issues.


                      In any case, the idea that racism does not affect people's lives because we do not enact racist laws is just a claim that fits with someone who does not know and does not want to learn the facts about the minority experience in the US.
                      Last edited by pamak; 01 Dec 19, 18:48.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        As opposed to Internationalism which has killed in its name well over 100 million people in the 20th Century, and enslaved to one degree or another over half the world's population.
                        Not on my property they didn't.

                        Which is all that matters, for me

                        Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

                        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Interesting new tax from the party that claims to be antiracism

                          Evanston leaders say they see the dispensaries as an opportunity to pay for a local reparations program that would address the lingering institutional effects of slavery and discrimination. The proposal passed 8-1, with Ald. Tom Suffredin, 6th Ward, voting against it…

                          The tax on marijuana will “be invested in the community it unfairly policed and damaged,” Simmons said.

                          A committee of residents is currently examining ways to spend the money and how to best support the black community
                          https://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...gii-story.html



                          Most people would recognize that a tax used to benefit people of one race and one race alone was racist and unconstitutional, but Evanston, Illinois did it anyway.


                          Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                          Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
                            My point about enacting racist laws has to do with 2 things.
                            1) Actual proof of racism, as opposed to just what the dems say about them and
                            2) the impact of the alleged racism.
                            We already established that enacting racist laws isn't the only way to prove racism.

                            As to my first point, you say that the allegation of racism isn't "born out of thin" air and yet there are no actions that would give proof of actual racism.
                            I already provided examples of actions.

                            We only have allegations from the left, or, as is the case with the statement of trump at issue here, convoluted (and inconsistent) explanations of why his seemingly vague statement is an specific endorsement of racism.
                            That's not what I mentioned, so I'm not going to debate something that wasn't part of my argument.

                            I think you make a reasonable point about white racist groups gravitating towards republicans, but if the issue is simply racism, then we must also consider why minority racist organizations gravitate to the dems.
                            (BLM, BAMN, La Raza) To say nothing of openly racist major players in the dem party. ( louis Farrakhan, jesse Jackson, al shaprton) I would submit that the racist groups on either side feel that they will be welcomed by their party of choice. But the fact that the racists gravitate to one side or the other isn't proof that the party they lean towards is racist. Proof of such racism is best found in the actions of the political organization
                            .
                            The fact that BLM is labeled as racist says it all. Throughout American history the activists trying to curtail racism has always been labeled as the bad guys by a certain group.

                            And, as seems clear, no one can point to actually racist laws or policies of the GOP.

                            One party openly welcomes racists, the other doesn't. And the one that is open about it is not the GOP.

                            As to my second point, if the racism has no impact on anyone, how can we know that the racism exists, unless we are simply assuming it? None of us know all the dark inner thoughts of politicians but if they keep it under wraps and those dark thoughts have no impact on anyone, how can we really complain about them or claim those undisclosed dark thoughts exist?

                            Illinois is a deep blue state, your own article includes statements by GOP Senator Cruz and the former GOP gov. of Illinois urging people to vote for the democratic candidate over that guy. It would seem the GOP took a firm stance against the guy, who only got in because the GOP didn't field a candidate. So, it would seem the evidence supports that the GOP doesn't welcome racists. Or at least openly rejected that racist.
                            Illinois being blue is irrelevant, they still have republicans who voted for a neo nazi. To that point, 56,000 people who supported him is a far greater number than the 2 senators who told them not to. Says a lot that this was brought to their attention, urged not to vote for him by their own leaders, yet they did it anyway. If it was 56k who spoke out against him and 2 that voted for him, then you'd have a point.

                            To be honest, I really have no idea what you mean by: "
                            white conservatives staging and executing mass attacks against minorities?"
                            The numerous terrorist attacks targeting blacks and Hispanics. Counting the ones that actually happened and the ones stopped by the FBI. If it wasn't for the work of the FBI, stopping so many plots, we'd be in a full-on race war right now as a direct result of the people on your side.

                            When you point out that the "majority of the party is white men", my assumption is that you are suggesting that alone is proof of racism. Which implies that white men are inherently racist and other races are not.
                            Bad assumption, look at your context clues. You claimed democrats are racist against white men. An accusation that doesn't hold up due to the amount of white men in the party. So to the contrary, I'm saying that they're not racist. Generally speaking.

                            Most likely, racism is more taught than it is inherent. Living in a country that honors and celebrates slave owners, might be part of the reason why racism is still an issue and taught trait.
                            "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                            - Benjamin Franklin

                            The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Talk about blind faith, If its anti-trump or anti-republican from the lefty news services it has to be true....

                              Credo quia absurdum.


                              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                                We already established that enacting racist laws isn't the only way to prove racism.



                                I already provided examples of actions.



                                That's not what I mentioned, so I'm not going to debate something that wasn't part of my argument.


                                .
                                The fact that BLM is labeled as racist says it all. Throughout American history the activists trying to curtail racism has always been labeled as the bad guys by a certain group.



                                Illinois being blue is irrelevant, they still have republicans who voted for a neo nazi. To that point, 56,000 people who supported him is a far greater number than the 2 senators who told them not to. Says a lot that this was brought to their attention, urged not to vote for him by their own leaders, yet they did it anyway. If it was 56k who spoke out against him and 2 that voted for him, then you'd have a point.



                                The numerous terrorist attacks targeting blacks and Hispanics. Counting the ones that actually happened and the ones stopped by the FBI. If it wasn't for the work of the FBI, stopping so many plots, we'd be in a full-on race war right now as a direct result of the people on your side.



                                Bad assumption, look at your context clues. You claimed democrats are racist against white men. An accusation that doesn't hold up due to the amount of white men in the party. So to the contrary, I'm saying that they're not racist. Generally speaking.

                                Most likely, racism is more taught than it is inherent. Living in a country that honors and celebrates slave owners, might be part of the reason why racism is still an issue and taught trait.




                                You argued that the racist from Illinois was evidence of the GOP's racism and ignored the fact that the GOP urged people to vote for the democrat rather than the guy they had nothing to do with.
                                If you are going to use him as an example of the GOP's racism, you can't ignore the fact they openly rejected him.

                                As for BLM, I could provide more evidence if I did a search, but I will admit that my opinion of BLM's racism was probably born when they disrupted Bernie Sanders in a campaign appearance and demanded he say "Black Lives Matter". Bernie said "All lives matter" and that offended them and was unacceptable.
                                Bernie was right, BLM was wrong.

                                You said there were numerous mass attacks by white conservatives. You still haven't indetified what you are talking about.

                                My point about racism in the dem party is tied to an actual policy or act, where they said no white men apply for a tech position they opened.
                                That fact exists regardless of the white men in the party
                                Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                                Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                                Comment

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