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  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    Special envoys have no posting in the administration .
    Explain to us how your response somehow counters his claim that Giuliani was never a special envoy.
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Massena View Post

      Yes, they do. They are special envoys and have a mission to do for who assigned them as such.
      No : such people are not special envoys . Special envoys are people who work secretly and are not members of an administration : Dahlerus, a swedish industrialist and an acquaintance of Göring was a special envoy who worked secretly at the end of August 1939 to prevent the start of WWII .
      Bob Kennedy was indirectly a special envoy during the Cuba Crisis,where he had secret contacts with Russian diplomats . He was AG, but operated as the brother of the potus .
      In 1968,mrs Chennault was Nixon's special envoy to South Vietnam .
      In 2008 Obama sent a special envoy to Iran .

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pamak View Post

        Of course there are norms in foreign policy too which is the reason why diplomats with decades of experience cannot recall a conduct in foreign policy which resemble that of Trump and Giuliani Your words mean nothing. Again, read what I said. The presence of a parallel channel is not abnormal. Te abnormal thing is to have a contradiction between the understanding of career diplomats and these parallel channels. And by the way, Giuliani was not a special envoy.
        The parallel channel decides, not the leaking diplomats .
        No intelligent potus, or president of an other country will use the official channel for his foreign policy : the president of Brazil (pob) has appointed his son as ambassador in Washington, because he can't trust diplomats .
        History is swarming with stories of diplomats who were sabotaging the foreign policy of their government .

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pamak View Post

          Explain to us how your response somehow counters his claim that Giuliani was never a special envoy.
          Giuliani was not an official special envoy,but a secret special envoy .

          Comment


          • Really?

            Where did you come up with that bit of nonsense?

            And if its so 'secret' why are Giuliani's escapades so public?
            We are not now that strength which in old days
            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Massena View Post
              Really?

              Where did you come up with that bit of nonsense?

              And if its so 'secret' why are Giuliani's escapades so public?
              What escapades ?
              What Giuliani did has been leaked by the traitors of Deep State .

              What Mrs Chennault did in 1968 was secret, what Bob Kennedy did in 1960 and 1968 was secret, What Bill Burns did in 2008 was secret,Irangate was secret,Obama's back-channel talks with Iran were secret (the DS traitors did not leak it ) , etc .
              Learn something about US history .
              You never heard about colonel House, the secret envoy of W.Wilson ?

              Comment


              • It seems you never heard of governor Morris (shadow diplomat of Washington ,of Armand Hammer, of H.Hopkins, of William Wilson ( working for Reagan ) ,of the CEO of Coca Cola (working for Carter ) of James Logan (working for Harding ) , etc
                Source : Real Clear Politics.
                Ts,ts .

                Comment


                • 'the traitors of Deep State'? That is just absolute nonsense. Perhaps you have a reliable source for the 'deep state'? I doubt it, but go ahead and try.

                  Take your own advice and learn something about US history and the US government before posting rubbish. Do you know what Col House's job was?

                  He was an advisor to Presiden Wilson and there was nothing secret about it.
                  Last edited by Massena; 29 Nov 19, 09:27.
                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                    The parallel channel decides, not the leaking diplomats .
                    No intelligent potus, or president of an other country will use the official channel for his foreign policy : the president of Brazil (pob) has appointed his son as ambassador in Washington, because he can't trust diplomats .
                    History is swarming with stories of diplomats who were sabotaging the foreign policy of their government .
                    You cannot follow the conversation:

                    It is not that the diplomats decides. I mentioned that the diplomats confirmed that Trump's decision to have two different channels with no cooperation was unprecedented. You cannot be serious in claiming that nobody could be be trusted except Giuliani.
                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                      Giuliani was not an official special envoy,but a secret special envoy .
                      And I said that this "secrecy" is what makes the behavior unique and suspect. There was no reason to have it secret from the State Department and the Pentagon.

                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                        It seems you never heard of governor Morris (shadow diplomat of Washington ,of Armand Hammer, of H.Hopkins, of William Wilson ( working for Reagan ) ,of the CEO of Coca Cola (working for Carter ) of James Logan (working for Harding ) , etc
                        Source : Real Clear Politics.
                        Ts,ts .
                        If one wants to talk about informal diplomats, he can even look at more recent examples, like Dennis Rodman. You confuse the idea of using a person as an informal messenger or mediator with the idea of having such messenger pursuing objectives which conflicted with the objectives that the formal diplomats understood that they got from the president. As I said, it is the latter which is unprecedented.

                        Also, this was not a case where a US president could not establish communication. Usually, such solution is used when the US cannot afford to show that it talks to dictators and governments, like for example when such governments are not recognized. So trying to compare Giuliani's role to the role of people who were tasked to communicate with Castro does not cut it.
                        Last edited by pamak; 29 Nov 19, 09:53.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          It seems you never heard of governor Morris (shadow diplomat of Washington ,of Armand Hammer, of H.Hopkins, of William Wilson ( working for Reagan ) ,of the CEO of Coca Cola (working for Carter ) of James Logan (working for Harding ) , etc
                          Source : Real Clear Politics.
                          Ts,ts .
                          How many of them conducted illegal activities along with attempts at personal enrichments?
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                            How many of them conducted illegal activities along with attempts at personal enrichments?
                            Where are your proofs that the activities of Giuliani were illegal and that he tried to enrich himself ?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                              And I said that this "secrecy" is what makes the behavior unique and suspect. There was no reason to have it secret from the State Department and the Pentagon.
                              The reasons to have it secret from State and the Pentagon are obvious : Trump can't trust State and Pentagon .

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                                You cannot follow the conversation:

                                It is not that the diplomats decides. I mentioned that the diplomats confirmed that Trump's decision to have two different channels with no cooperation was unprecedented. You cannot be serious in claiming that nobody could be be trusted except Giuliani.
                                What the diplomats confirmed was, translated, that they were angry because Trump used a second channel which did not inform them .
                                Trump could not trust the ambassador in Ukraine who did not accept the new president and preferred his predecessor,because his predecessor worked for Obama. while the new one was neutral .
                                Poroshenko sabotaged Trump,and the ambassador knew it .
                                Politico (January 2017 ) : Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire .
                                Who was pou (president of Ukraine ) in 201 6 ? Poroschenko .Who was ambassador in Ukraine in 2016?Yovanovich . Who made Poroschenko pou ?Obama using CIA,USAID,Soros, State .Who knew everything Poroschenko was doing ? US embassy .Who organised Euromaidan ?
                                Thus, Trump would be very foolish to use/inform State, Pentagon, the embassy .

                                Comment

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