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Devin Nunes Met with Ex-Ukrainian Official to get dirt on Biden

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  • #91
    And not by Giuliani, the president's 'lawyer'...
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

    Comment


    • #92
      Giuliani is NOT the president''lawyer " ,he is one of the president's lawyers .And when the president sends him to Ukraine, he speaks in the name of the president and the US ambassador had to obey him,as the US ambassador in Britain in WWII had to obey Hopkins .If Yovanovich refused to cooperate with Giuliani, she refused to cooperate with Trump . Thus under the bus with this rebel .

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by ljadw View Post

        The official stance of the US is the stance of the potus, it is determined by the potus, not by state or Pentagon who are only executants but who determine nothing .
        And all presidents use unofficial agents in their foreign policy : you can't have an efficient foreign policy if it is done publicly by ambassadors,by state .Ambassadors are the last persons to be involved in foreign policy . Foreign policy is determined by the White House and executed by secret messengers of the president .
        When Bryan and Tillerson disagreed with the potus, they were fired .
        The potus is the head of the executive branch, state is a part of the executive branch, the president is his own secretary of state .
        Established norms in foreign policy do not exist .
        You do not understand the point. You made a comment about Hunter's suspicious supposedly conduct and I countered your point in two ways: First, I explained that his conduct is the usual business in the current capitalist system. Second, I reminded you that the POTUS conduct is actually the one that deviates from the norms and is suspicious. The conduct of the POTUS or anybody else can raise suspicion or not regardless of what he can or cannot do theoretically do.

        Yes, the POTUS can make decisions about the official stance of the US but this does not mean that when he shows a propensity to be secretive and reluctant to articulate his policies to the official diplomats while growing parallel channels of diplomacy with his personal lawyer that such thing can be considered as usual business. And by all accounts, diplomats of 20 and 30 years experience testified that what they were observing was very unusual.

        As they testified, while it is not unusual for a POTUS to use a mediator of some sort in addition to the regular diplomatic channels, they have never recalled a case where the mediator's actions are in conflict with the understanding of the the diplomats or of the State Department or of the Pentagon.
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by ljadw View Post
          Giuliani is NOT the president''lawyer " ,he is one of the president's lawyers .And when the president sends him to Ukraine, he speaks in the name of the president and the US ambassador had to obey him,as the US ambassador in Britain in WWII had to obey Hopkins .If Yovanovich refused to cooperate with Giuliani, she refused to cooperate with Trump . Thus under the bus with this rebel .
          Ohh, glad that you admit that Giuliani speaks in the name of the president. Let's see if you will keep this position after Trump tries to claim that he never directed Giuliani on Ukraine...

          https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/27/trum...on-probes.html

          "Well, you have to ask that to Rudy, but Rudy, I don't, I don't even know," Trump replied. "I know he was going to go to Ukraine, and I think he canceled a trip. But, you know, Rudy has other clients other than me. I'm one person."

          "So, you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf?" O'Reilly asked again.

          "No, but you have to understand, Rudy is a great corruption fighter," Trump said.



          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by ljadw View Post
            Why is Zlochevsky living in exil in Monaco ?
            Because Hunter did not protect him
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
              Always a conspiracy theory.
              Always the Russian talking point he gets from HQ each morning

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                Because Hunter did not protect him
                NO : Hunter is no longer in Ukraine (not physically, he never was in Ukraine ),but because Joe no longer can stop the investigations against Zlochowsky and because Poroschenko is no longer president.With the help of Joe and by bribing Poroschenko, Zlochovsky was able to survive . Now he is forced to live in Monaco . Otherwise he would return to Ukraine .

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by pamak View Post

                  Ohh, glad that you admit that Giuliani speaks in the name of the president. Let's see if you will keep this position after Trump tries to claim that he never directed Giuliani on Ukraine...

                  https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/27/trum...on-probes.html

                  "Well, you have to ask that to Rudy, but Rudy, I don't, I don't even know," Trump replied. "I know he was going to go to Ukraine, and I think he canceled a trip. But, you know, Rudy has other clients other than me. I'm one person."

                  "So, you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf?" O'Reilly asked again.

                  "No, but you have to understand, Rudy is a great corruption fighter," Trump said.


                  Trump did not deny that Giuliani was speaking in his name .The fact that Trump said that he did not direct Giuliani on Ukraine, does not mean that Giuliani did not speak in Trump's name .

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by pamak View Post

                    You do not understand the point. You made a comment about Hunter's suspicious supposedly conduct and I countered your point in two ways: First, I explained that his conduct is the usual business in the current capitalist system. Second, I reminded you that the POTUS conduct is actually the one that deviates from the norms and is suspicious. The conduct of the POTUS or anybody else can raise suspicion or not regardless of what he can or cannot do theoretically do.

                    Yes, the POTUS can make decisions about the official stance of the US but this does not mean that when he shows a propensity to be secretive and reluctant to articulate his policies to the official diplomats while growing parallel channels of diplomacy with his personal lawyer that such thing can be considered as usual business. And by all accounts, diplomats of 20 and 30 years experience testified that what they were observing was very unusual.

                    As they testified, while it is not unusual for a POTUS to use a mediator of some sort in addition to the regular diplomatic channels, they have never recalled a case where the mediator's actions are in conflict with the understanding of the the diplomats or of the State Department or of the Pentagon.
                    There are no norms in foreign policy : each president is imposing his own norms . FDR used Hopkins, Nixon Kissinger, Trump Giuliani .Kennedy, Johnson, Bush, Obama,also used secret envoys . This allowed them to control the whole processus .
                    The norm is that a potus uses someone outside State, because he does not trust State .
                    What the diplomats want is that the potus should not use outsiders,but only State so that they only would have the needed information to influence the decisions from potus .

                    Comment


                    • Special envoys is an universal and very old practice .That State dislikes it does not make it unusual . Diplomats are the last persons to be used for delicate missions . They are leaking as politicians and have their own agenda .
                      See :Foreign Affairs : (January 1960 !!) :Why the US needs special envoys by Harry Wriston )
                      and Michael Fullilone :All the presidents' men :the role of Special envoys in US Foreign Policy .

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                        Special envoys is an universal and very old practice .That State dislikes it does not make it unusual . Diplomats are the last persons to be used for delicate missions . They are leaking as politicians and have their own agenda .
                        See :Foreign Affairs : (January 1960 !!) :Why the US needs special envoys by Harry Wriston )
                        and Michael Fullilone :All the presidents' men :the role of Special envoys in US Foreign Policy .
                        Giuliani is not and was not a 'special envoy.' He had no posting in the administration.
                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                          Giuliani is not and was not a 'special envoy.' He had no posting in the administration.
                          Special envoys have no posting in the administration .

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                            Special envoys have no posting in the administration .
                            Yes, they do. They are special envoys and have a mission to do for who assigned them as such.
                            We are not now that strength which in old days
                            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                              NO : Hunter is no longer in Ukraine (not physically, he never was in Ukraine ),but because Joe no longer can stop the investigations against Zlochowsky and because Poroschenko is no longer president.With the help of Joe and by bribing Poroschenko, Zlochovsky was able to survive . Now he is forced to live in Monaco . Otherwise he would return to Ukraine .
                              Your timeline contradicts your theory because Burisma's founder left Ukraine at the end of 2014 when Poroshenko was in power and when Hunter was a board member.
                              Last edited by pamak; 28 Nov 19, 12:02.
                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                                There are no norms in foreign policy : each president is imposing his own norms . FDR used Hopkins, Nixon Kissinger, Trump Giuliani .Kennedy, Johnson, Bush, Obama,also used secret envoys . This allowed them to control the whole processus .
                                The norm is that a potus uses someone outside State, because he does not trust State .
                                What the diplomats want is that the potus should not use outsiders,but only State so that they only would have the needed information to influence the decisions from potus .
                                Of course there are norms in foreign policy too which is the reason why diplomats with decades of experience cannot recall a conduct in foreign policy which resemble that of Trump and Giuliani Your words mean nothing. Again, read what I said. The presence of a parallel channel is not abnormal. Te abnormal thing is to have a contradiction between the understanding of career diplomats and these parallel channels. And by the way, Giuliani was not a special envoy.
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                                Comment

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