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Devin Nunes Met with Ex-Ukrainian Official to get dirt on Biden

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  • If you google Atlantic Council, you will find that Burisma is one of its donors.
    If you google Sean Misko ( staffer of Schiff ) you will see that he was a millenium fellow of the Atlantic Council
    If you google Thomas Eager (staffer of Schiff ) you will see that he worked for the Atlantic Council Eurasia Center .
    It took me 3 minutes .
    What I have yet not found is when Burisma started to be a donor of this Democratic anti Trump think tank,but I would not be surprised that it was when Burisma started to pamper the two Bidens .
    A donation to a Democratic think tank is always money well spent for an enterprise in danger .
    Kurt Volker also worked for the Atlantic Council .

    Comment


    • According to what I have read on the Atlantic Council, it's a non-partisan think tank that takes donations from myriad groups and various people.

      What's your point?
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
        You have NO PROOF that the Ukrainian president was pandering Trump...
        You're accusing someone else of not having any proof of a subject under discussion? That's a crock and is very hypocritical.

        We are not now that strength which in old days
        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
          Hopkins was already operating as FDR's secret envoy BEFORE LL .State did not know what Hopkins and Kissinger were doing . That is a fact .If State knew it, the next day it would be published in the NYT .The only who knew were FDR/Nixon/Hopkins and Kissinger . Hull and Rogers were in the dark .
          And, as there is no law forbidding the potus to use private citizens as secret envoys, Trump had allright to use Giuliani as secret envoy . He did only what other presidents had done .
          Trump was asking the Ukrainian president to investigate the claims ( which are true ) that the US vicepresident had protected an Ukrainian criminal (Zlochevsky ) against the attemps by an other Ukrainian criminal ( Poroshenko ) to take from him his billions for the price of 2.4 million dollars to be paid to the son of the vicepresident.
          While one can argue that the protection given by Biden sr was legal,as criminal Poroshenko was an ally of Obama and criminal Zlochevsky an ally of Putin, the second part ( the $ 2.4 million ) is obvious illegal .as a federal official can not accept/receive remuneration for the work he is doing,except his monthly salary he receives from the American taxpayer .And this for obvious reasons .The Bidens received money from Zlochevsky and this was illegal .
          Trump, potus, has every right to ask the Ukrainian president to investigate this , That,later, this would hurt the political activities of Biden, is irrelevant .
          Nope!

          You confuse the idea of what is revealed to the public to the idea that he was acting in secrecy, and you have ZERO evidence that the State did not know what they were doing! The assumption that if they knew the NYT would have published in the next morning makes no sense since we have many cases of different administrations doing things that did not leak to the press. But your ignorance is also astounding because you are not familiar with documents which SHOW that different members of the administration KNEW what they were doing. More on that in a different post!

          I also said that just because something is legal it does not mean that such conduct does not raise suspicions. So, using secretly an envoy without a good explanation regarding what "controversial" policy made such secret envoy necessary is suspicious. And in Trump;s case, thee transcript nails down which part of his "policy" was the controversial one: finding dirt about Biden"
          Again, take your conspiracy theories somewhere else.

          You have provided no evidence that the founder of Burisma payed Biden, and you have failed to address my counterpoint that it is the corporation which pays contracts and the money does not come out of the personal wealth of the owners. Repeating conspiracy claims does not refute my counterpoint.

          Also stop making stupid claims about the criminal Poroshenko being an ally of Obama when the same criminal Poroshenko received an aid from Trump. And if criminal Zlochevsky was an ally of Putin then this makes him an ally of Trump too. Not to mention that according to what you admitted, Zlochevsky fled Ukraine when Obama and Poroshenko were in power. Your theories fail to pass even the basic level of logic.

          Trump had every right to use whoever he wanted to contact the Ukraine officials but the House and every reasonable voter have every right to investigate him after the transcript was revealed which showed that he wanted to have the Ukrainian president deliver dirt for Biden, This conduct is inappropriate and illegal and Giuliani who is caught in the middle of this while he collaborates with indicted Ukrainian mafia guys cannot simply avoid scrutiny by arguing that the POTUS can appoint whoever he wants to arrange with Ukrainian officials the investigation of Biden and arrange quid pro quo condition for a White House meeting or military aid to Ukraine. Such conduct is impeachable and what is irrelevant is opinions like yours which are void of evidence and logic.
          Last edited by pamak; 01 Dec 19, 16:28.
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
            Meanwhile two of Schiff's staffers have been found to be tied to the Atlantic Council, which is funded by ...Burisma .
            Meanwhile the fact is that Giuliani was found to have ties with indicted Ukrainian mafia guys who illegally donated to Trump's campaign.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

            Comment


            • But that's OK as Giuliani supports Trump, as do Republicans in Congress.
              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                If you google Atlantic Council, you will find that Burisma is one of its donors.
                If you google Sean Misko ( staffer of Schiff ) you will see that he was a millenium fellow of the Atlantic Council
                If you google Thomas Eager (staffer of Schiff ) you will see that he worked for the Atlantic Council Eurasia Center .
                It took me 3 minutes .
                What I have yet not found is when Burisma started to be a donor of this Democratic anti Trump think tank,but I would not be surprised that it was when Burisma started to pamper the two Bidens .
                A donation to a Democratic think tank is always money well spent for an enterprise in danger .
                Kurt Volker also worked for the Atlantic Council .
                If you google Trump's Campaign Manager or Trump's personal lawyer,. you will find them in federal prison.

                By the way, Volker was picked by Tillerson and neither Trump nor Giuliani were interested in his removal
                .
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Volker

                On July 7, 2017, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson appointed Ambassador Kurt Volker as the US Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations.[22][23] Volker accompanied Tillerson on his trip to Ukraine two days later.

                And by the way, the position was established during the Trump administration
                In office
                July 7, 2017 – September 27, 2019
                Donald Trump
                Position established
                So, now we have also established (based on your theories) that Trump's members of his administration are also connected to the Atlantic Council. This also took about 3 minutes of googling. It is very easy for conspiracy lunatics to to create such connections based on veryyyy loose associations.
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment



                • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                  Hopkins was already operating as FDR's secret envoy BEFORE LL .State did not know what Hopkins and Kissinger were doing . That is a fact .If State knew it, the next day it would be published in the NYT .The only who knew were FDR/Nixon/Hopkins and Kissinger . Hull and Rogers were in the dark .
                  .
                  Just to show to what level void of facts your comments are

                  First, regarding Kissinger:


                  As i said, Kissinger was a member of the administration as National Security Council senior adviser and not Nixon's personal lawyer

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger
                  .
                  .
                  8th United States National Security Advisor

                  In office
                  January 20, 1969 – November 3, 1975
                  Richard Nixon
                  .
                  As for the policy with respect to China...

                  https://china.usc.edu/getting-beijin...cret-1971-trip

                  You can see the different original documents which refute your claims, including'

                  February 5, 1969

                  Henry Kissinger notified the State and Defense departments and the Central Intelligence Agency that the National Security Council has been directed to prepare a study on U.S. relations with China, to include alternative approaches and risks. (State Department, Office of the Historian)


                  December 2, 1969
                  Secretary of State William Rogers wrote to President Nixon to advocate for continued relaxation of measures against China. He thought this might be helpful as a wedge between the Soviet Union and China.Rogers reported that "there have been signs of moderation in Peking's foreign policy stance including—in private encounters—toward the U.S." Rogers listed a number of measures that could be taken to send positive signals to China's leaders. These included loosening economic restrictions, including the purchase of American farm products.Nixon accepted the recommendations and changes were announced on December 19. (State Department, Office of the Historian)





                  February 20, 1970
                  National Security Council staffer Alexander Haig wrote on behalf of Henry Kissinger to President Nixon that Chinese representatives at the Warsaw talks said "that if we wished to send a representative of “ministerial rank or a special Presidential envoy to Peking for the further exploration of fundamental principles of relations” between the US and China, they would be prepared to receive him." (State Department, Office of the Historian)

                  July 1, 1971
                  President Nixon met with Henry Kissinger and Alexander Haig to go over plans for Kissinger's meetings with Chinese leaders.




                  .
                  In conclusion from the above, any attempt to compare Kissinger to Giuliani is nonsense. In addition, unlike Giuliani, Kissinger was pursuing an objective which was common understanding within the Nixon administration regarding the need to improve relations with China. Kissinger did not act in a way that contradicted this understanding nor did he advocated the removal of diplomats who believed in such policy by finding BS excuses based on a smear campaign. Giuliani's conduct is certainly unprecedented and with no reasonable explanation to justify his presence when there WERE ALREADY AT LEAST TWO special envoys (Sondland and Volker) working on the same issue.





                  As for Hopkins, his first trip as an envoy was not secret. In fact FDR announced it

                  https://www.historynet.com/harry-hop...-president.htm

                  Recent events, however, had left a serious void in communication between the two nations. Ambassador Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr., had resigned, and the British ambassador to the United States, Lord Lothian, had died just days after Roosevelt received Churchill’s pivotal letter. Unable to meet with his British counterpart himself, Roosevelt told the press he was sending Hopkins to London so that he can “talk to Churchill like an Iowa farmer.”

                  and his first trip to London WAS about the Lend Lease.

                  The bond of trust between Hopkins and Churchill began in January 1941, when Hopkins first visited London, and deepened into what might be called the “other Special Relationship.”

                  ...

                  Roosevelt’s challenge was twofold: to help Britain materially, he needed to convince Americans that their scarce munitions would not be wasted. Simultaneously he had to convince Churchill that Americans were indeed supportive of British efforts to resist what many in the world saw as an inevitable capitulation to the Germans.2 Hopkins was the right man to send to England on Roosevelt’s behalf. Or at least this is what Hopkins thought.

                  The content obviously had to be secret since the US as technically neutral, but again this does not mean that it was kept secret from the rest of the administration.

                  Just a few months later we had the pass of the Lend Lease Act

                  https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=71

                  Passed on March 11, 1941, this act set up a system that would allow the United States to lend or lease war supplies to any nation deemed "vital to the defense of the United States."

                  And Hopkins was actually the one who administered the Lend Lease program

                  https://www.fdrlibrary.org/lend-lease

                  . The program’s three administrators—Harry Hopkins...

                  And again, in this case, Hopkins did not pursue an objective that contradicted the common understanding within the FDR administration about the need to help England. The Lend Lease deal was a natural continuation of the destroyer deal a year before

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers-for-bases_deal
                  Last edited by pamak; 01 Dec 19, 17:56.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                    According to what I have read on the Atlantic Council, it's a non-partisan think tank that takes donations from myriad groups and various people.

                    What's your point?
                    The Atlantic Council is an establishment anti Trump think tank, it is anti Russian, but it accepts money from a Putin supporter .
                    Is it legal for a US think tank to accept money from some one who supports Putin, who is following you an enemy of the US ?
                    If a think tank which supports Trump would receive money from a Russian industrialist, you would be the first to claim that this is illegal .
                    The Atlantic Council is also funded by Soros and Soros does not give money to non-partisan think tanks .

                    Comment


                    • ''No one can read far in The Memoirs of Cordell Hull without being struck by the frequency with which the Secretary of State recorded infringements upon his prerogatives and actions or proposals at variance with State Department Policy .
                      Such interferences were perpetrated in various occasions by the President,by ambassadors abroad,by presidential agents as Harry Hopkins,by fellow cabinet members,and by subordinates in Hull's own State Department .''

                      The Ordeal of Cordell Hull : Julius W.Pratt .
                      Hopkins was an agent of the White House who interfered in the State Department policy .
                      Trump did and is doing what all his predecessors have done : divide et impera .
                      The fact that you criticize Trump for what all American presidents have done proves that your criticism is founded on bias only . Obama did the same but you do not criticize Obama .Obama also did not give Hillary free hand: he never forgot that she wanted to become potus in his place .
                      It would be very foolish of a potus to expect loyalty from his cabinet, that's why they all use secret agents from outside the cabinet .
                      The first thing what Truman did when he became potus was to organize a purge : the FDR appointees were fired,because he did not trust them .

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                        The Atlantic Council is an establishment anti Trump think tank, it is anti Russian, but it accepts money from a Putin supporter .
                        Is it legal for a US think tank to accept money from some one who supports Putin, who is following you an enemy of the US ?
                        If a think tank which supports Trump would receive money from a Russian industrialist, you would be the first to claim that this is illegal .
                        The Atlantic Council is also funded by Soros and Soros does not give money to non-partisan think tanks .
                        More nonsense:

                        Meanwhile,

                        https://www.rt.com/russia/465086-atl...a-undesirable/

                        25 Jul, 2019
                        Russia declares Atlantic Council think tank an ‘undesirable’ organization – what exactly is it?

                        And any reasonable person can see that the Atlantic Council always included people from both parties. By your conspiratorial logic, everybody is Putin's friend. In 2010 the chairman was a former long-term republican senator.

                        https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-in...for-nato/18945

                        The roster of the Atlantic Council is packed with former Pentagon, State Department and Central Intelligence Agency veterans. Its chairman is former Republican Senator Chuck Hagel. Its president and chief executive officer is Frederick Kempe, a journalist with the Wall Street Journal for thirty years who is now a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and who serves on the Senior Advisory Group of Admiral James Stavridis, commander of U.S. European Command and NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe.
                        ...

                        Last edited by pamak; 02 Dec 19, 01:47.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          ''No one can read far in The Memoirs of Cordell Hull without being struck by the frequency with which the Secretary of State recorded infringements upon his prerogatives and actions or proposals at variance with State Department Policy .
                          Such interferences were perpetrated in various occasions by the President,by ambassadors abroad,by presidential agents as Harry Hopkins,by fellow cabinet members,and by subordinates in Hull's own State Department .''

                          The Ordeal of Cordell Hull : Julius W.Pratt .
                          Hopkins was an agent of the White House who interfered in the State Department policy .
                          Trump did and is doing what all his predecessors have done : divide et impera .
                          The fact that you criticize Trump for what all American presidents have done proves that your criticism is founded on bias only . Obama did the same but you do not criticize Obama .Obama also did not give Hillary free hand: he never forgot that she wanted to become potus in his place .
                          It would be very foolish of a potus to expect loyalty from his cabinet, that's why they all use secret agents from outside the cabinet .
                          The first thing what Truman did when he became potus was to organize a purge : the FDR appointees were fired,because he did not trust them .
                          The only problem s that Trump did not have a conflict of political positions with Pompeo . So, there was ZERO reason for him to bypass Pompeo and rely on Giuliani instead. And again, conflicting views about how to handle certain things does not mean that the president's policy is not known to his subordinates. Mattis disagreed with Trump regarding how to handle Syria but was not kept in the dark about Trump's wants.

                          The fact that Trump did not want to articulate the problems he had with the established current policy of military aid in Ukraine is, you like or not suspect. And the transcript reveals the only reasonable answer for such secrecy. Trump used his office for election gains by negotiating in secrecy with a foreign leader to get first for Trump's main political rival.

                          What I try to support (because there is rarely such thing as proof) is based on FACTS. You pull things out of thin air with no facts and no logical connections to the comparisons you try to make. You assume things and you expect others to accept whatever you say.

                          I spoke with facts about Hopkins and you come up empty handed. As I showed, everybody was on the same page with Hopkin's intervention in the UK and USSR to set up the Lend Lease.


                          I suggest you keep in mind that Pompeo was still a member of the Trump administration and that it was TRUMP who CHOSE TO KEEP Volker and who chose Sondland for pursuing contacts with the Ukrainians. So, whatever you try to compare with the "purges" you mention has no bearing on what we discuss.
                          Last edited by pamak; 02 Dec 19, 01:35.
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                            More nonsense:

                            Meanwhile,

                            https://www.rt.com/russia/465086-atl...a-undesirable/

                            25 Jul, 2019
                            Russia declares Atlantic Council think tank an ‘undesirable’ organization – what exactly is it?

                            And any reasonable person can see that the Atlantic Council always included people from both parties. By your conspiratorial logic, everybody is Putin's friend. In 2010 the chairman was a former long-term republican senator.

                            https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-in...for-nato/18945

                            The roster of the Atlantic Council is packed with former Pentagon, State Department and Central Intelligence Agency veterans. Its chairman is former Republican Senator Chuck Hagel. Its president and chief executive officer is Frederick Kempe, a journalist with the Wall Street Journal for thirty years who is now a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and who serves on the Senior Advisory Group of Admiral James Stavridis, commander of U.S. European Command and NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe.
                            ...
                            You know who is Hagel ? An anti-Israelian RINO who worked with Obama ,who endorsed 2 Democrats for Senate in his state and who is an enemy of Trump .
                            Kempe also is hostile to Trump .
                            An institution that is packed with former Pentagon,State Department and CIA veterans ( people who can not be trusted ) can not be trusted ,

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                              The only problem s that Trump did not have a conflict of political positions with Pompeo . So, there was ZERO reason for him to bypass Pompeo and rely on Giuliani instead. And again, conflicting views about how to handle certain things does not mean that the president's policy is not known to his subordinates. Mattis disagreed with Trump regarding how to handle Syria but was not kept in the dark about Trump's wants.

                              The fact that Trump did not want to articulate the problems he had with the established current policy of military aid in Ukraine is, you like or not suspect. And the transcript reveals the only reasonable answer for such secrecy. Trump used his office for election gains by negotiating in secrecy with a foreign leader to get first for Trump's main political rival.

                              What I try to support (because there is rarely such thing as proof) is based on FACTS. You pull things out of thin air with no facts and no logical connections to the comparisons you try to make. You assume things and you expect others to accept whatever you say.

                              I spoke with facts about Hopkins and you come up empty handed. As I showed, everybody was on the same page with Hopkin's intervention in the UK and USSR to set up the Lend Lease.


                              I suggest you keep in mind that Pompeo was still a member of the Trump administration and that it was TRUMP who CHOSE TO KEEP Volker and who chose Sondland for pursuing contacts with the Ukrainians. So, whatever you try to compare with the "purges" you mention has no bearing on what we discuss.
                              While Hopkins was still a private person, he was used as special agent by FDR,who bypassed State .And, it was not about LL,but BEFORE LL.

                              Comment


                              • Saying that there was no reason to bypass State, is proving to have no notion of the fundamentals of the US political system: the potus uses whom he wants for what he wants .There was no reason to use ,inform, involve State ,because the more persons know something, the less it can remain secret, especially if one informs un reliable persons working at State .
                                JFK used his brother, the AG, for secret contacts with Dobrynin during the Cuba crisis and kept State in dark . Thus why should Trump use state for an investigation about illegal activities in Ukraine by a US VP ?If he did it, the day after the enemy would know it and CNN would talk about it .Knowing the role of the Few but Infamous in the attempt by the WH to prevent his nomination as candidate and his election as potus in 2016, Trump would be very foolish to use the Democratic secret police in an investigation of illegal activities of one of their leaders .
                                George Schutlz was not informed about the selling of weapons to Iraq and Iran by the Reagan WH . Why ? Because following Reagan,it was not his business .For the selling of weapons to Iraq,Reagan used Rumsfeld who was a private person,as is Giuliani .
                                The potus decides what is whose business .
                                That is the only way to prevent the Executive Branch to be subordinated to the two others . And the Executive Branch is the potus .

                                Comment

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