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  • #61
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    What's that got to do with the total implacability of use while in service? The service life is also a problem. Typically, batteries last about 5 years in use in electric vehicles. This can vary some depending on the climate they're used in (heat in particular will shorten the life) and the manner in which they are charged and used. If you charge a battery car regularly at a fraction of the whole charge, the battery tends to get a "memory" and you end up having a very shortened range per charge.
    The other problem is replacement cost. Replacing a battery pack in one of these vehicles is akin to replacing the engine and transmission in a gasoline vehicle. That is, it costs upwards of $10,000 + to do it. That makes it uneconomical to bother to replace them. Better to scrap the vehicle and make a new one. That's great for manufacturers but terrible for the resale market and those looking for low price vehicles because of limited budgets.

    In a very real sense, battery cars are biased against the poor and lower class due to their cost. That is, they are very unfair and create economic inequality.
    Vehicle manufacturers are already working on this. What to do after that 5-10 year period. Currently across the world, we're seeing these spent batteries being used in multiple other applications. Power storage for homes, businesses. Powering street lights, grid batteries for electricity. Lot's of backup applications. A new and emerging economic field that will create a 'circle' of use for these batteries.

    Everything we're talking about is already being done. Your statement was an opinion if you ask me.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
      The technology is already catching up to the problem and turning a problem into another usable resource. This will only continue to increase.
      Battery technology is largely a settled science. You can't change the qualities of the various elements. You can't get more than about 2 VDC from a battery cell. The chemical reactions that make batteries work are well understood and no ground shaking new revelations are going to occur.
      That large batteries take hours at best to be recharged makes them largely impractical except for intermittent use. The manufacturing process from raw material extraction to usable product isn't going to suddenly become more economically feasible. Batteries are expensive of the power they produce.
      Recycling batteries is simply an add-on to their expense rather than something to be celebrated.

      On the whole, battery car technology is a dead end.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
        Vehicle manufacturers are already working on this. What to do after that 5-10 year period. Currently across the world, we're seeing these spent batteries being used in multiple other applications. Power storage for homes, businesses. Powering street lights, grid batteries for electricity. Lot's of backup applications. A new and emerging economic field that will create a 'circle' of use for these batteries.

        Everything we're talking about is already being done. Your statement was an opinion if you ask me.
        Well, I didn't ask you. Battery technology has niche uses. It simply isn't a technology that has long-term, continuous use application. You can't get around the chemistry and physics of how batteries work. Batteries have a working life at the end of which you have to manufacture a new battery from scratch, even when using recycled materials. It's that simple.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          Batteries have a working life at the end of which you have to manufacture a new battery from scratch, even when using recycled materials. It's that simple.
          You don't have to remanufacture a new battery. You can recycle the spent battery to nearly 100% capacity. Battery technologies will continue to emerge and become more efficient/less costly. That is a given.

          Just look at where batteries have gone from in their past. That will continue, newer technologies will emerge.

          Take a look at this article to see what's currently being done globally about the problem
          '
          https://www.instituteforenergyresear...d-repurposing/

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          • #65
            Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post
            You don't have to remanufacture a new battery. You can recycle the spent battery to nearly 100% capacity. Battery technologies will continue to emerge and become more efficient/less costly. That is a given.

            Just look at where batteries have gone from in their past. That will continue, newer technologies will emerge.

            Take a look at this article to see what's currently being done globally about the problem
            '
            https://www.instituteforenergyresear...d-repurposing/
            No, you can't. Once a battery has cycled so many times, it loses its ability to hold a charge. There can also be other issues that occur from the normal chemical reactions in one such as "treeing." Electrolyte gets used and spent with each charge. Improper charging and over use can shorten the life of a battery.

            When the battery will no longer hold a charge, you have to disassemble it, and essentially manufacture a new battery from the components. You can't "recycle" it in situ.
            And, no, battery technology is pretty much a complete science. You aren't going to discover new types as you are limited by the periodic table and elements available. It's that simple. The last battery invented was the Lithium ion and that was in 1980, or about 40 years ago.



            As you can see here, batteries aren't really making new technological leaps. The Lithium-Sulphur battery dates back to the 1960's invention-wise but is only now really being looked at because of both chemical reaction limitations and they are relatively unsafe without serious associated electronic controls to prevent a number of bad things from happening with them.

            Chemistry and physics trumps unicorns and rainbows.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

              No, you can't. Once a battery has cycled so many times, it loses its ability to hold a charge. There can also be other issues that occur from the normal chemical reactions in one such as "treeing." Electrolyte gets used and spent with each charge. Improper charging and over use can shorten the life of a battery.

              When the battery will no longer hold a charge, you have to disassemble it, and essentially manufacture a new battery from the components. You can't "recycle" it in situ.
              And, no, battery technology is pretty much a complete science. You aren't going to discover new types as you are limited by the periodic table and elements available. It's that simple. The last battery invented was the Lithium ion and that was in 1980, or about 40 years ago.



              As you can see here, batteries aren't really making new technological leaps. The Lithium-Sulphur battery dates back to the 1960's invention-wise but is only now really being looked at because of both chemical reaction limitations and they are relatively unsafe without serious associated electronic controls to prevent a number of bad things from happening with them.

              Chemistry and physics trumps unicorns and rainbows.
              A company in Canada is currently 'renewing' spent batteries to 100%. Spent EV batteries still hold 70% of their capacity, which is why the batteries are moved to different industries and not put in landfills. It was mentioned in the link I provided. The technology will continue to improve and move to different ingredients. It's inevitab1e.

              Your chart shows what I said, the technology for energy storage and the ingredients involved will continue to change and get better.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

                Well I have nothing against anyone. So I don’t want you to take this wrong but I will say that this was once again a massive Public display of incompetence by Tesla. There is this and other posters pointed out there are people who have ordered Tesla cars and who have been waiting upwards of 6 to 9 months just to receive their car. That’s not acceptable


                I will say this though, I don’t like tesla. I don’t like the idea of electric cars taking over. I like the feel of a V6 engine gas powered. I like the sites of big pick up trucks in the United States of America.

                I do know that a few hundred Americans work for Tesla in my area ... and I’m happy they have a job. I just hope that they don’t lose everything in a year or two when the real possibility of Tesla falling apart comes into fruition.


                I don’t know how it is for people around the world but Tesla is a so-called American company led by Europeans. So here in Buffalo we have this Tesla plant where it claims it’s an American car company but all the CEOs are Europeans and constantly Europeans are being flown in to check on the plant. Which is no problem but the fact is tesla for example claimed it would bring many jobs to various areas. Well I live in New York state and our government gave Tesla $1 billion of taxpayer money to invest in a building that used to employ 15 to 20,000 Americans at I believe Bethlehem steel. The plant tesla has in buffalo today maybe employes 200 people with no union jobs, And a recent audit has shown the Tesla building to be worth nowhere near the $1 billion that the New York State government has given them a few years ago.

                I also had a bad experience with some Tesla employers that came to Buffalo from Europe they were rude people. And just look at the facts look at how low the Tesla pay is compared to what Ford and General Motors employees used to make.

                I can tell you that at the buffalo plant tesla employees start off at $17 an hour without a union. Compare that to the 1970s when you first started at Ford motor company you would get $32 an hour after 90 days on the job and you would be in the union. Talk about a massive difference. I also feel that my arguments are very pro American here I am arguing for American steel and auto companies and I’m arguing that we need to bring back union jobs that pay Americans a fair wage. Tesla does not pay a fair wage they are the bad guys right now

                Maybe other people have a different experience with Tesla but I have a bad one. And the biggest reason is because Tesla does not provide union jobs and tesla took over a building that used to provide tens of thousands of jobs to Americans but now only provides a few hundred.
                I’m merely pointing out that it was an simple engineering issue, yeah the timing sucked but it hasn’t stopped the free publicity. And lastly I’m sorry but I’m not getting into the other issues you’ve pointed out. The amount of immature animosity and false reporting of electric car performance etc shown here only highlights how futile it is to discuss.
                "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                Ernest Hemingway.

                "We're all going to die, all of us; what a circus! That alone should make us love each other, but it doesn't. We are terrorised and flattened by trivialities."
                Bukowski

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post

                  I’m merely pointing out that it was an simple engineering issue, yeah the timing sucked but it hasn’t stopped the free publicity. And lastly I’m sorry but I’m not getting into the other issues you’ve pointed out. The amount of immature animosity and false reporting of electric car performance etc shown here only highlights how futile it is to discuss.
                  Wrt the shattered window..Thats what Musk says though, are we to believe him? And I must say for a multi billion dollar company to not run multiple tests making sure the window wont break was a surprise. I like you but I dont like Tesla, and I dont like the sight of the Tesla plant in my city because its a plant that provides non union jobs in an area that used to provided way more jobs that were pro union.

                  Well I dont think that most anti Telsa folks are immature. They have very real concerns such as can Tesla do what it said which was bring in good jobs to Americans. Tesla plants have not brought in the huge #s of jobs that past Auto or steel companies have been able to bring in.

                  What can I say, I also dont like electric cars. I like the loud noise of a big gas engine car, like a V8 Mustang. I have nothing against folks that drive the Toyota Prius though, Im not against Americans choosing to buy a Toyota. Electric cars are not my thing. But aside from my opinion I can see that Tesla has not provided the types of jobs that other manufactures have been able to do.
                  Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                  Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                  George S Patton

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                  • #69
                    Stonewall, you have to understand what Musk is really doing here. Every, like, six or so months he comes out with a new publicity stunt for Tesla. The Tesla semi-tractor, the Tesla pick up truck, etc., etc., etc.
                    The reason he's doing this, and taking advanced orders on these things is to stay ahead of bankruptcy of the company. He's not the first conman to come along with this sort of pie-in-the-sky dream of making it big. He's just better positioned to keep the house of cards from crashing down. Bernie Madoff was the same way.

                    Look at past failures that simply didn't have the capital Musk has to keep the fraud going:

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_Motorcar_Company

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_48

                    Tesla motors is almost, but not quite, a Ponzi scheme. It's never turned a profit. It's way behind on production. Musk rolls out new ideas and models raking in cash for future sales and success. At some point, that's all going to come crashing down in failure. Only the government can operate for an extended period at a loss and even the government eventually has that catch up with them in the form of hyperinflation and economic depression.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

                      Wrt the shattered window..Thats what Musk says though, are we to believe him? And I must say for a multi billion dollar company to not run multiple tests making sure the window wont break was a surprise. I like you but I dont like Tesla, and I dont like the sight of the Tesla plant in my city because its a plant that provides non union jobs in an area that used to provided way more jobs that were pro union.

                      Well I dont think that most anti Telsa folks are immature. They have very real concerns such as can Tesla do what it said which was bring in good jobs to Americans. Tesla plants have not brought in the huge #s of jobs that past Auto or steel companies have been able to bring in.

                      What can I say, I also dont like electric cars. I like the loud noise of a big gas engine car, like a V8 Mustang. I have nothing against folks that drive the Toyota Prius though, Im not against Americans choosing to buy a Toyota. Electric cars are not my thing. But aside from my opinion I can see that Tesla has not provided the types of jobs that other manufactures have been able to do.
                      The proof of the glass not breaking is out there, it’s not debatable... they now know why it broke, a simple engineering fix will do. I’m not a fan of it actually, because being able to break glass in an emergency situation is essential I believe.
                      As for liking noisy cars, that’s not going away anytime soon. We have one notable car critic here in Oz who absolutely hates Elon and his bullshit. After one week of driving a electric Hyundai he readily admits EVs have a refinement that is unmatched, despite the glaring deficiencies that come with it.
                      "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                      Ernest Hemingway.

                      "We're all going to die, all of us; what a circus! That alone should make us love each other, but it doesn't. We are terrorised and flattened by trivialities."
                      Bukowski

                      Comment

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