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Trump's NATO Problem...Abandoning Allies?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

    Wow you really don't like us, but I half a$$ agree with you, we try to play Nanny in too many places, however, if your a$$ ever gets in a sling AGAIN, ain't it nice that we have your back.
    Did you read what I wrote? Or did you just see the first line and start chanting USA USA in your head? Guessing the latter.
    Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

    That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
      Problem is the cold war ended nearly 30 years ago. We don't need to spend double the money per year on military spending then every other relevant country in the world combined anymore. We could cut our military budget in half and still be the leader in annual military expenditure world wide.
      I get that and agree, but why poking allies in the eye is a plan that you think will bear fruit.... I dunno... you lot are a weird mob sometimes
      Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

      That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Rojik View Post

        I get that and agree, but why poking allies in the eye is a plan that you think will bear fruit.... I dunno... you lot are a weird mob sometimes
        There are no allies in peacetime: allies exists only in wartime . Thus, as NATO is not at war ,....

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
          We became this way because of the immediate threat of the dictator and murderer Stalin after the end of WWII. After he saw the results of Hiroshima and Nagasaki he could not annex every country up to the English Channel which was his plan. Then when they developed their nukes in 49 the cold war started.

          Problem is the cold war ended nearly 30 years ago. We don't need to spend double the money per year on military spending then every other relevant country in the world combined anymore. We could cut our military budget in half and still be the leader in annual military expenditure world wide.

          We have these lurking all over. Takes one push of the button.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine
          And now we have the murderer and dictator Putin-operating in the 'grand old' Russian style-seeking to expand at his neighbor's expense. It has been that way since Ivan IV...
          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Massena View Post

            And now we have the murderer and dictator Putin-operating in the 'grand old' Russian style-seeking to expand at his neighbor's expense. It has been that way since Ivan IV...
            Nonsense .
            Putin is not Stalin ,besides Stalin also never had the intention to occupy Western Europe .

            Comment


            • #21
              For the US, the interests of its allies are subordinated to its own interests,and for its allies, the interests of the US are subordinated to their own interests .
              See the Suez War and the Vietnam War .

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                I think I can recall correctly that NATO was formed before the Warsaw Pact.

                p.s. Yep, I confirmed it. We are supposedly a branch of a military forum composed mostly of older, Cold War era people...
                I don't think I SPECIFICALLY said "Warsaw Pact" was created before NATO so this pick of nit is reaching for an extreme ...
                ... Had I known your reading and comprehension dyslexia would kick in this way I could have said "USSR and it's occupied and controlled East European nations" (which would later organize as the Warsaw Pact) but I was just trying to keep it short ...
                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Massena View Post

                  And now we have the murderer and dictator Putin-operating in the 'grand old' Russian style-seeking to expand at his neighbor's expense. It has been that way since Ivan IV...
                  As far as Europe is concerned, he'd need to go through the Ukraine first ...
                  ... current Russia doesn't have a military of the size we saw with Stalin and in post WWII which set off the Cold War, so it's probable that Europe's nations could defend themselves better, now, with less USA back-up.
                  TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                    Nonsense .
                    Putin is not Stalin ,besides Stalin also never had the intention to occupy Western Europe .
                    I didn't say he was Stalin. He is, however, a dictator and a murderer.

                    And Stalin's 'ambition' was to get as far to the West as he could. To either deny or ignore that is rubbish.
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Rather than reply to many more posts, just a few quick pointers here;

                      1) USA has tried in past to be more "isolationist" but a little over a century ago we got drug into that first World War and then again a couple decades later. By 1945 we were clearly the "Arsenal of Democracy" having produced enough weapons and material for our own needs and the equip of many of our Allies. So there was some inertia there combined with several years of occupation of the former belligerent nations, so collectively it sort of fell into our laps one could say.

                      2) Our "meddling" could be in part a make-up for our neglect earlier that might have helped those two world wars happen and the USA having to ramp up it's response and efforts to "settle the hash". With League of Nations having failed but United Nations get better traction, USA was sort of underwriting post WWII efforts to make a better peace, which has worked in most ways for about 70 years now.

                      3) While USA origins included being an international trading nation, over past century or so USA financial and industries firms and interests have also become international. With capital of sorts invested overseas and with the interlinked global economies, USA is tied to foreign concerns far more than ever envisioned by our Founders.

                      4) Having a military with the size and capabilities we do, does place USA in anything from support to lead role in many parts of the world. Regards Europe and NATO, nothing wrong in seeing European nations take on a larger part of their defense needs and at the same time it's practical and efficient for the USA to retain some air and sea bases/ports and small continuing deployments of forces in Europe that can ready assist and provide a foundation for further reinforcements should that need ever occur. I'd wage those nations hosting our forces and bases don't mind the fund$ they receive from our presence there.

                      5) Looking forward, Europe can and should be able to carry more it's own share of it's own defense. Also, it would be positive, IMO, to include former Warsaw Pact and USSR nations in NATO, giving it an even more Euro-centric substance.
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        Rather than reply to many more posts, just a few quick pointers here;

                        1) USA has tried in past to be more "isolationist" but a little over a century ago we got drug into that first World War and then again a couple decades later. By 1945 we were clearly the "Arsenal of Democracy" having produced enough weapons and material for our own needs and the equip of many of our Allies. So there was some inertia there combined with several years of occupation of the former belligerent nations, so collectively it sort of fell into our laps one could say.

                        2) Our "meddling" could be in part a make-up for our neglect earlier that might have helped those two world wars happen and the USA having to ramp up it's response and efforts to "settle the hash". With League of Nations having failed but United Nations get better traction, USA was sort of underwriting post WWII efforts to make a better peace, which has worked in most ways for about 70 years now.

                        3) While USA origins included being an international trading nation, over past century or so USA financial and industries firms and interests have also become international. With capital of sorts invested overseas and with the interlinked global economies, USA is tied to foreign concerns far more than ever envisioned by our Founders.

                        4) Having a military with the size and capabilities we do, does place USA in anything from support to lead role in many parts of the world. Regards Europe and NATO, nothing wrong in seeing European nations take on a larger part of their defense needs and at the same time it's practical and efficient for the USA to retain some air and sea bases/ports and small continuing deployments of forces in Europe that can ready assist and provide a foundation for further reinforcements should that need ever occur. I'd wage those nations hosting our forces and bases don't mind the fund$ they receive from our presence there.

                        5) Looking forward, Europe can and should be able to carry more it's own share of it's own defense. Also, it would be positive, IMO, to include former Warsaw Pact and USSR nations in NATO, giving it an even more Euro-centric substance.
                        Some former Warsaw Pact/Communist/USSR satellite nations are already part of NATO, such as Poland, Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, and Slovenia.
                        Last edited by Massena; 08 Nov 19, 12:32.
                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Massena View Post

                          I didn't say he was Stalin. He is, however, a dictator and a murderer.

                          And Stalin's 'ambition' was to get as far to the West as he could. To either deny or ignore that is rubbish.
                          He is not a dictator: a dictator does not allow opposition and a dictator puts opponents in the Gulag : there is no Gulag in Russia .

                          About Stalin : neither he neither his successors had the intention to go to Gibraltar,although after the Sputnik launching they could have done it : in 1957 the only operational NATO forces were 6 US divisions and the BOAR . These could not stop a Soviet attack .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                            He is not a dictator: a dictator does not allow opposition and a dictator puts opponents in the Gulag : there is no Gulag in Russia .

                            About Stalin : neither he neither his successors had the intention to go to Gibraltar,although after the Sputnik launching they could have done it : in 1957 the only operational NATO forces were 6 US divisions and the BOAR . These could not stop a Soviet attack .
                            Keep telling yourself that.
                            We are not now that strength which in old days
                            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Massena View Post

                              Some former Warsaw Pact nations are already part of NATO, such as Poland.
                              I know. Others remaining should be welcomed in as well, so long as they agree to terms and purpose.
                              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Massena View Post

                                Keep telling yourself that.
                                Stalin could not even eliminate Tito .Every year the Soviet power in Eastern Europe was falling, thus how could the SU occupy another 200 million people ? Where would he get the needed manpower ?
                                No country was /is strong enough to dominate Europe.Napoleon could not do it, Hitler could not do it , Stalin could not do it . Putin can not do it . Besides the military power of Russia is only a shadow of the military power of the SU .
                                You are living in the past, in a society,an era that has disappeared, and I doubt that it ever has existed .
                                Sooner or later, and I expect sooner, US will leave Europe and Putin will not invade Europe .

                                Comment

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