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Trump uses murderous Turkey to force Kurds to negotiate.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by pamak View Post

    And yes, I know that Turkey will never approve any policy that is correct for the US but against Turkish interests.
    Why would that be wrong ?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by pamak View Post

      Again, I did not say that the US should fight for the Kurds. I said that the US troops should withdraw based on the US president's timetable instead of Erdogan's. Showing such weakness is detrimental to the US interests in the region, including in Afghanistan. Such a rush to withdraw makes all enemies bold.
      The timetable did no longer apply as there was a war going on .Withdrawal by timetable is causing American casualties and US involvement in the war,what do want the Kurds .
      Timetable means a American/Kurdish alliance .
      Or do you want the US military to remain and play cards while Kurds and Turks kill each other ?

      Comment


      • #48
        I have not seen someone proving that the presence of American soldiers in a war that is no concern for the US,would be a good thing .
        US soldiers should leave conflict zones that are not important for the interests of the US .
        Opposite to young McCain, my opinion is that US and western military should only be involved in conflicts that are important for their interests .Not to prevent wars, as war is eternal .The presence of mankind on earth means war .

        Comment


        • #49
          For the conflict that we debate :
          The Turks want US to be neutral
          The Kurds want US to help them .
          Thus the presence of US military could result in a US/Kurdish alliance .
          There is no need for such an alliance and such an alliance is not good for the US .
          Thus the order of Trump : get the hell out of there,is the only sensible attitude. Whatever the Kurdish lobby may say .

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by pamak View Post

            Again, I did not say that the US should fight for the Kurds. I said that the US troops should withdraw based on the US president's timetable instead of Erdogan's. Showing such weakness is detrimental to the US interests in the region, including in Afghanistan. Such a rush to withdraw makes all enemies bold.
            Where do you get this idea that Trump is withdrawing troops according to Erdogan's schedule? Trump announced in December 2018 that US troops would be withdrawn. He initially called for their removal within 2 weeks, then extended it to 4 months, and eventually delayed it over 9 months. There was no rush to withdraw. The Kurdish leaders had over 9 months to contact the Syrian government and come to some sort of agreement over mutual defense. That such an agreement was always possible is evidenced by how quickly one was eventually forged just 3 days after the Turks started attacking.

            Comment


            • #51
              Trump uses murderous Turkey to force Kurds to negotiate
              Actually, if there is any truth to this thread title, it would be

              Trump uses Western-backed moderate rebels to force Kurds to negotiate....
              for just until this very summer most of the establishment media and liberal politicians in Washington were still labeling these fanatics as moderates and were criticizing Syrian government efforts to eradicate them.


              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Skoblin View Post

                Where do you get this idea that Trump is withdrawing troops according to Erdogan's schedule? Trump announced in December 2018 that US troops would be withdrawn. He initially called for their removal within 2 weeks, then extended it to 4 months, and eventually delayed it over 9 months. There was no rush to withdraw. The Kurdish leaders had over 9 months to contact the Syrian government and come to some sort of agreement over mutual defense. That such an agreement was always possible is evidenced by how quickly one was eventually forged just 3 days after the Turks started attacking.
                Trump had zero reason to withdraw immediately after the phone call and without even warning the Kurds to at least evacuate the civilians or take measures to secure the evacuation of ISIS prisoners. There were even reports of US airplanes bombarding facilities like

                https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-...=hp_lista_pos1

                The US military destroyed its own anti-ISIS headquarters in Syria, The Wall Street Journalreported Wednesday, to prevent them from falling into the hands of fighters backed by Turkey.


                None of the above are indications of a controlled withdrawal.

                So no matter what Trump announced, it is obvious that he did not prepare the military and his allies to execute any such withdrawal. As usual, what Trump says in public is at odds with what Trump really does! What happened is that Mattis and the other DOD advisers convinced him to backtrack from his original statements and that staying on course was the best decision for the US.
                Last edited by pamak; 19 Oct 19, 03:01.
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by pamak View Post

                  Trump had zero reason to withdraw immediately after the phone call and without even warning the Kurds to at least evacuate the civilians or take measures to secure the evacuation of ISIS prisoners. There were even reports of US airplanes bombarding facilities like

                  https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-...=hp_lista_pos1 The US military destroyed its own anti-ISIS headquarters in Syria, The Wall Street Journalreported Wednesday, to prevent them from falling into the hands of fighters backed by Turkey.

                  None of the above are indications of a controlled withdrawal.

                  So no matter what Trump announced, it is obvious that he did not prepare the military to execute any such withdrawal. As usual, what Trump says in public is at odds with what Trump really does!

                  The Kurdish leaders had 9 months of warning.
                  The US military had 9 months to plan

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                    For the conflict that we debate :
                    The Turks want US to be neutral
                    The Kurds want US to help them .
                    Thus the presence of US military could result in a US/Kurdish alliance .
                    There is no need for such an alliance and such an alliance is not good for the US .
                    Thus the order of Trump : get the hell out of there,is the only sensible attitude. Whatever the Kurdish lobby may say .
                    The point is not what the Kurds or the Turks want. The point is what the US wants. And acting without a compelling reason in a way that makes it look weak is not what the US wants. There was zero reason for Trump to make a decision about the withdrawal immediately after Erdogan's call. Turkey has never fired deliberately at soldiers of his most powerful military and economic ally. And since they knew that sooner or later the US troops would withdraw, they would have chosen more patience over direct provocation by attacking and killing American soldiers.
                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                      Why would that be wrong ?
                      I am not saying it is wrong for Turkey. I am saying it is irrelevant to my argument since it is focused on the proper US response which is best for the US interests.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                        The Kurdish leaders had 9 months of warning.
                        The US military had 9 months to plan
                        I disagree!

                        I find difficult to believe that the DOD or CENTCOM or whatever military HQ was responsible for the region could not organize in 9 months a plan for a decent evacuation. The logical explanation is that the DOD convinced Trump to backtrack from some public statements he made and stay on course. So, Trump could not just make an impulsive decision after Erdogan's phone call and then turn to the military and claim that he gave it 9 months warnings to plan a withdrawal.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          There was zero reason for the US military to remain in northern Syria after the start of the war .
                          If you can't intervene in a war ( it would not be in the interests of the US to chose sides) you can't remain in the war zone .
                          To remain (timetable is to remain ) means joining the Kurds or joining the Turks .
                          If there were US military on the Falklands when Argentine attacked, the only sensible attitude would be to leave immediately ,not by timetable .
                          Besides : there is no need for a timetable to withdraw 100 men .

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by pamak View Post

                            I disagree!

                            I find difficult to believe that the DOD or CENTCOM or whatever military HQ was responsible for the region could not organize in 9 months a plan for a decent evacuation. The logical explanation is that the DOD convinced Trump to backtrack from some public statements he made and stay on course. So, Trump could not just make an impulsive decision after Erdogan's phone call and then turn to the military and claim that he gave it 9 months warnings to plan a withdrawal.
                            Trump wanted to leave already 9 months ago, but the Pentagon wanted to remain and sabotaged Trump's policy .
                            The US military withdrawed in a few hours, thus evacuation plans were not needed .
                            If the US military had left BEFORE the invasion, there would be no problem .

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by pamak View Post

                              I disagree!

                              I find difficult to believe that the DOD or CENTCOM or whatever military HQ was responsible for the region could not organize in 9 months a plan for a decent evacuation. The logical explanation is that the DOD convinced Trump to backtrack from some public statements he made and stay on course. So, Trump could not just make an impulsive decision after Erdogan's phone call and then turn to the military and claim that he gave it 9 months warnings to plan a withdrawal.
                              The Pentagon could organize an evacuation plan in 9 months, but did not,because it wanted to stay . That's why Trump fired Mattis .Or that Mattis resigned .

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                                Trump had zero reason to withdraw immediately after the phone call and without even warning the Kurds to at least evacuate the civilians or take measures to secure the evacuation of ISIS prisoners. There were even reports of US airplanes bombarding facilities like

                                https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-...=hp_lista_pos1

                                The US military destroyed its own anti-ISIS headquarters in Syria, The Wall Street Journalreported Wednesday, to prevent them from falling into the hands of fighters backed by Turkey.


                                None of the above are indications of a controlled withdrawal.

                                So no matter what Trump announced, it is obvious that he did not prepare the military and his allies to execute any such withdrawal. As usual, what Trump says in public is at odds with what Trump really does! What happened is that Mattis and the other DOD advisers convinced him to backtrack from his original statements and that staying on course was the best decision for the US.
                                There were zero reasons ( unless for the Kurdish lobby ) to remain after the phone call .

                                Comment

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