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Trump uses murderous Turkey to force Kurds to negotiate.

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  • #31
    It is safe to say that making any definitive statement about the situation in Syria will over time be proven wrong
    We hunt the hunters

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    • #32
      Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
      Or so the TDS befuddled will claim proving once again that the left and their neo Con counter parts are incapable of seeing the World as it is.

      The salient point is that if Trump's ceasefire and peace arrangements work out he will have saved more Kurdish lives than any president in history. Proving once again that the Elites are not only corrupt but incompetent.
      you don't get credit for cleaning up the mess you created. Just saying

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Johan Banér View Post
        The Turks have a state, the Kurds do not. The Turkish state regards even the prospect of one as an existential threat, justifying just about any means. Iran, Iraq and Syria has somewhat similar views on the matter. No friendship for the tens of millions of Kurds of the world.

        Cutting through the arguments of simple self-interest and sheer cynicism that clings to the situation, what it all lands in is the question whether such situation is not an injustice?

        All the the arguments against any kind of Kurdish state eventually boils down to rationalizing that supposedly this is not the case.
        How brave to live in a far off European land yet advocate carving up a sovereign country in the Middle East to suit your moral sensibilities.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Skoblin View Post

          How brave to live in a far off European land yet advocate carving up a sovereign country in the Middle Eastern country to suit your moral sensibilities.
          That works the opposite way too

          How easy it is to deny others self-determination when you enjoy it in a far off European land. And self-determination is one of the core ideas of freedom that we accept in the west. Even well established advanced democracies like the UK with centuries old history permit these days the Scots to decide if they want to be part of the UK or not. If the principle of self-determination is not always respected (and this includes the west), it is because politics is not based on idealism, but this does not negate the moral value of self-determination.
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by pamak View Post

            That works the opposite way too

            How easy it is to deny others self-determination when you enjoy it in a far off European land. And self-determination is one of the core ideas of freedom that we accept in the west. Even well established advanced democracies like the UK with centuries old history permitted the Scots to decide if they wanted to be part of the UK or not. If the principle of self-determination is not always respected, it is because politics is not based on idealism, but this does not negate the moral value of self-determination.
            And yet, Western liberals have no problem denying the legitimacy of the separatist claims of Russian-language speakers in eastern Ukraine and have very little to say about the ten year prison sentences handed down to Catalan separatists in Spain. As for Syria, if you support the independence claims of the Kurds in Syria, what of the thousands of Syrian Arabs, Assyrian Christians, and Syrian Armenians who inhabit this same land and who have no desire to live under Kurdish rule? It is as much their homeland as the Kurds, and even more so, as the Kurds populated some of these territories only after having helped the Turks exterminate the Armenians.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Skoblin View Post

              And yet, Western liberals have no problem denying the legitimacy of the separatist claims of Russian-language speakers in eastern Ukraine and have very little to say about the ten year prison sentences handed down to Catalan separatists in Spain. As for Syria, if you support the independence claims of the Kurds in Syria, what of the thousands of Syrian Arabs, Assyrian Christians, and Syrian Armenians who inhabit this same land and who have no desire to live under Kurdish rule? It is as much their homeland as the Kurds, and even more so, as the Kurds populated some of these territories only after having helped the Turks exterminate the Armenians.
              Correct!

              I admitted that politics even in the west is not based on idealism. it still does not make the value of self-determination not worthy to fight for. The Kurds who fight the Turks (PKK) want independence for the Kurdish population in Turkey. They do not fight for independence in Syria (or Iraq). If the Assyrian Christians or the Syrian Armenians wanted to fight for their independence I would not have a problem at all with their demands unless their numbers were too small to justify it. But for the Kurds, I know that they are millions without any country anywhere.
              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                Correct!

                I admitted that politics even in the west is not based on idealism. it still does not make the value of self-determination not worthy to fight for. The Kurds who fight the Turks (PKK) want independence for the Kurdish population in Turkey. If the Assyrian Christians or the Syrian Armenians wanted to fight for their independence I would not have a problem at all with their demands unless their numbers were to small to justify such demand.
                And that is part of the problem: the Syrian Arabs, Assyrian Christians, and Syrian Armenians who inhabit north-eastern Syria have made it clear they would rather live under a pluralist Syrian government than a ethno-nationalist Kurdish state carved out of the same region. So why should the self-determination aspirations of the Kurdish people in the area have primacy over the interests of other ethnic groups in the same region - and why should Western nations and citizens have any say in the matter?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
                  And that is part of the problem: the Syrian Arabs, Assyrian Christians, and Syrian Armenians who inhabit north-eastern Syria have made it clear they would rather live under a pluralist Syrian government than a ethno-nationalist Kurdish state carved out of the same region. So why should the self-determination aspirations of the Kurdish people in the area have primacy over the interests of other ethnic groups in the same region - and why should Western nations and citizens have any say in the matter?
                  I do not accept this as truth , at least with Assad controlling Syria. But even if it is true, it is not related to the issue of the PKK and the fight against Turkey which is about the independence of Kurds in eastern Turkey. And sure, in such situations it is often difficult to create demarcation lines to separate the population according to demographics. This is why I said that the numbers do count. And yes, in every solution that does not involve ethnic cleansing there will be a number of people who will live in a territory which is dominated by a different ethnic group as a result of the impossibility of completely separating different demographic groups.

                  The Balkans was a classic example of this. The first and second Balkan wars and the first world war took place in a region where soldiers would enter a Greek village one day, a Turkish village the next day, a Bulgarian village the day after that followed by a Greek village after that, etc. The Yugoslavian civil wars posed similar problems with the Serbian population living in Bosnia.
                  Last edited by pamak; 18 Oct 19, 16:58.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by pamak View Post

                    I am not your servant!
                    Feel free to quote the part which says that military times is a member of Deep State.
                    Meanwhile, instead of searching for conspiracy theories, you can google any source you want to read and learn about the agreement that existed between the US and Turkey for having the US troops patrolling the Turkish Syrian border. What is relevant is (or at east was) the presence of US troops on the borders which separated PKK and the Turkish army.
                    The presence of 100 US soldiers on the border did not separate the PKK from the Turkish Army .
                    The murderous PKK violated the agreement that they should not go to the border,which caused a reaction from the murderous Turks .

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                      The presence of 100 US soldiers on the border did not separate the PKK from the Turkish Army .
                      The murderous PKK violated the agreement that they should not go to the border,which caused a reaction from the murderous Turks .
                      I do not care about your unsubstantiated claims, and even if there was a token action by any member of the PKK, it does not justify a Turkish disproportionate response that creates dozens of thousands of refugees.
                      Last edited by pamak; 19 Oct 19, 00:52.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by pamak View Post

                        Correct!

                        But for the Kurds, I know that they are millions without any country anywhere.
                        Which is not our business : if they want a country, they must fight for it, but without us . Instead of rioting in Belgium, Germany, etc they should go to the ME and fight. They can not expect that we should solve their problems .
                        We have no obligations to them: they create only problems .

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by pamak View Post

                          I do not care about your claims, and even if there was a token action by any member of the PKK, it does not justify a Turkish disproportionate response that creates dozens of thousands of refugees.
                          Turkey has not to ask your approval . It does what it wants.Turkey has not to justify its acts . It is an independent country .Justification has no place in the ME .

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                            Which is not our business : if they want a country, they must fight for it, but without us . Instead of rioting in Belgium, Germany, etc they should go to the ME and fight. They can not expect that we should solve their problems .
                            We have no obligations to them: they create only problems .
                            Again, I did not say that the US should fight for the Kurds. I said that the US troops should withdraw based on the US president's timetable instead of Erdogan's. Showing such weakness is detrimental to the US interests in the region, including in Afghanistan. Such a rush to withdraw makes all enemies bold.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                              Turkey has not to ask your approval . It does what it wants.Turkey has not to justify its acts . It is an independent country .Justification has no place in the ME .
                              You make no sense , since I make arguments about the correct US decisions. And yes, I know that Turkey will never approve any policy that is correct for the US but against Turkish interests.
                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                              • #45
                                If the Turkish attack was not justified, why should the invasion of Iran by Iraq be justified? Or the attack on the Ottoman Empire by the Balkan states,or the attack by Bulgary against the Balkan states, or the 2 US attacks on Iraq ?Etc, etc,
                                Justification is hypocrisy ,especially if justification is asked by countries who have no business with what happens and who do the same, or worse .
                                Justification has no place in power politics .
                                Justification is an invention from American lawyers to make money .

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