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  • #61
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Eh, "law abiding citizens" (assuming the law itself is reasonable) are never a problem, "problem" is that everyone is a law abiding citizen, up to the point they break their first law.

    No one is born a "criminal", all start out as law abiding citizens.
    true. But people who acquire guns illegally with the intent to use them in a crime wouldn't be included in "law abiding citizens" and that is my point.
    it isn't the gun that causes crime, it is the intent of the individual.
    The gun can make things worse, but isn't the cause of criminal intent.
    Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

    Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

      Turkey feathers! Most all of the mass shooters have used legally own weapons and most had no criminal record.
      I note you keep saying "mass shooters" as if they are the same thing as the criminal shooters that I have been talking about.
      Mass shooters are a problem, but not the cause of most murders. Not by a long stretch.

      Mass shooters are mentally ill.
      Mentally ill people shouldn't own guns, the problem is that there is no legal way to prevent a person who might become mentally ill from owning a gun.
      Please note my emphasis is on the word "legal".
      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

        Who was the last cowboy Rambo to live in VT?
        these folkalthough they appear to be more Dairy cow boys and Gals ...
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

          I note you keep saying "mass shooters" as if they are the same thing as the criminal shooters that I have been talking about.
          Mass shooters are a problem, but not the cause of most murders. Not by a long stretch.

          Mass shooters are mentally ill.
          Mentally ill people shouldn't own guns, the problem is that there is no legal way to prevent a person who might become mentally ill from owning a gun.
          Please note my emphasis is on the word "legal".
          A gross generalisation. Some mass shooters are extremists who do it in support of their extreme political/racist/religious beliefs. Some "common" criminals are mentally ill. Not all mentally ill are violent and not all violent people are mentally ill

          All generalisations are dangerous, even this one. Alexandre Dumas fils
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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          • #65
            Originally posted by MarkV View Post

            A gross generalisation. Some mass shooters are extremists who do it in support of their extreme political/racist/religious beliefs. Some "common" criminals are mentally ill. Not all mentally ill are violent and not all violent people are mentally ill
            But wouldn't one who commits one of these seemingly motiveless mass murders be manifesting some form of mental illness? I mean, do mentally and emotionally healthy people shoot up random public spaces?
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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            • #66
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post

              A gross generalisation. Some mass shooters are extremists who do it in support of their extreme political/racist/religious beliefs. Some "common" criminals are mentally ill. Not all mentally ill are violent and not all violent people are mentally ill
              Are you saying that people that shoot up the public are perfectly normal, I don't think so, no matter what their beliefs are.
              Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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              • #67
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                A gross generalisation. Some mass shooters are extremists who do it in support of their extreme political/racist/religious beliefs. Some "common" criminals are mentally ill. Not all mentally ill are violent and not all violent people are mentally ill
                well, the democrat who tried to kiil republican congressmen for political reasons was probably mentally ill and his crime is not proof that all democrats are mentally ill.
                I would submit that anyone who feels the solutions to his problems involves shooting others, even if they are republicans, is mentally ill.
                I didn't say that all violent people are mentally ill, but am comfortable saying that all mass shooters are mentally ill.
                Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                  Turkey feathers! Most all of the mass shooters have used legally own weapons and most had no criminal record.
                  That may be true John, but they also make up less then a 1/1000th of a percent of annual murders. While most criminals are indeed stupid, the vast majority are not so stupid as to purchase a gun that can be traced back to them.

                  Gun bans do nothing to study the underlying causes of all these mass shooters. A phenomenon that is relatively recent; primarily dating back to the '90s. Coincidentally that was the time of the rise of mass 24/7 media, the internet, and the first group of Millenials (which most of these shooters are).

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                    But wouldn't one who commits one of these seemingly motiveless mass murders be manifesting some form of mental illness? I mean, do mentally and emotionally healthy people shoot up random public spaces?

                    Mental disorder is probably a more accurate phrase. In their minds there is always a "rational" reason. The problem, though, is that it is almost utterly undetectable as mind readers are sci-fi and not reality.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

                      Are you saying that people that shoot up the public are perfectly normal, I don't think so, no matter what their beliefs are.
                      Ah, but no one single person can ever be characterized as "perfectly normal." In fact, most of these mass shooters are perfectly normal, even the "angry" ones, as nearly every person on the planet is "angry" at one point or another. I would go so far to say that each and every one of us is capable of this type of crime, but obviously the vast majority never cross the threshold. I find it is interesting that most of these shooters are quite young and immature. As the rise in the mass killerers (though it has happened before, it was a rare event) looks to be something that has occurred over the last 30 years (say two generations), which speaks to some underlying cause that has affected those generations (collectively termed "Millennials"), and since guns existed, and were even more easily attained prior to the advent of the Millennials it stands to reason there is some other greater underlying cause, which the "Gun Control Now" crowd completely ignores. Then again, it is human nature to ignore the complex for the simple.

                      Tuebor

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

                        Are you saying that people that shoot up the public are perfectly normal, I don't think so, no matter what their beliefs are.
                        Nah they are just American

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

                          well, the democrat who tried to kiil republican congressmen for political reasons was probably mentally ill and his crime is not proof that all democrats are mentally ill.
                          I would submit that anyone who feels the solutions to his problems involves shooting others, even if they are republicans, is mentally ill.
                          I didn't say that all violent people are mentally ill, but am comfortable saying that all mass shooters are mentally ill.
                          The problem is that often the crime is perpetrated not to solve a personal problem but for external "political" reasons. When an extreme political position becomes a mental illness is rather difficult to determine although in the current ever more polarised world one does wonder if the asylum doors have been unlocked.
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                            The problem is that often the crime is perpetrated not to solve a personal problem but for external "political" reasons. When an extreme political position becomes a mental illness is rather difficult to determine although in the current ever more polarised world one does wonder if the asylum doors have been unlocked.
                            I don't think we live in a more polarized world. Certainly nothing like the past. However, our ability to communicate with others all around the world has exploded in Supernova like orders of magnitude. Could you imagine what Americans and Brits would be saying to one another during WWII?

                            That said, I think it will take a few generations before we are able to psychological cope with the telecommunications revolution.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                              The problem is that often the crime is perpetrated not to solve a personal problem but for external "political" reasons. When an extreme political position becomes a mental illness is rather difficult to determine although in the current ever more polarised world one does wonder if the asylum doors have been unlocked.

                              Agreed. It certainly seems that way.
                              Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                              Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post


                                Agreed. It certainly seems that way.
                                Your use of the Congressmen getting shot up is not a good comparison. The shooter had a goal. The usual mass shooter has no goal and seldom even know the people they shoot at. Just targets and get as many as possible. Total stranges and inncoent vicitms
                                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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