Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

San Francisco waste 600k removing George Washington mural

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    I don't want to eliminate history, thus I don't want to restart it. The people throughout our history need to be judged on an individual basis. Honor those who deserve it, whether they're from 1776 or 2019, doesn't matter.

    You want to celebrate slave owners, while I don't. There's really nothing else to it.
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

      I'm not back pedaling, I stand by the fact that he should not be celebrated or honored.

      Germany rejected their dark history to shape a better future by not honoring Nazis. They're condemned. Americans should do the same by not honoring slave owners.

      But, to Americans slave ownership was not all that bad. They hold this view because they still harbor the same mentality of slave owners.
      So we should only teach that Washington was an evil slave owner and not that he lead the colonial forces, or became our first president or that when offered the title of king he refused it, or that he was brave in battle,
      We should not have statues or murals or any depiction of him other than as a slave owner?,
      Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
      Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

        I'm not back pedaling, I stand by the fact that he should not be celebrated or honored.
        Back pedaling.....maybe not. Revisionist history, yes without a doubt. You want to erase history. Here's a news flash for you TactiKill Jr. The moment you erase history is the beginning of repeating history.

        Your quest will only lead to destruction.

        While do you post in a history forum when you want to erase history?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

          So we should only teach that Washington was an evil slave owner and not that he lead the colonial forces, or became our first president or that when offered the title of king he refused it, or that he was brave in battle,
          ,
          No, tell his full story. Right now everyone ignores the fact he owned slaves.

          We should not have statues or murals or any depiction of him other than as a slave owner?
          Why would you ask that after 6 pages of me arguing that the mural should be removed? But, again as I said earlier this is all within the context of his mural being in schools. I said any monuments or murals outside of that warrant a separate discussion. For instance, I don't have any issue with statues of his being in museums, or Mount Rushmore. My position isn't as black or white as you're trying to make it out to be.
          "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
          - Benjamin Franklin

          The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

            No, tell his full story. Right now everyone ignores the fact he owned slaves.



            Why would you ask that after 6 pages of me arguing that the mural should be removed? But, again as I said earlier this is all within the context of his mural being in schools. I said any monuments or murals outside of that warrant a separate discussion. For instance, I don't have any issue with statues of his being in museums, or Mount Rushmore. My position isn't as black or white as you're trying to make it out to be.
            So, which is more significant and important about Washington? That he owned slaves, or that he was one of the most important businessmen of his era (including being a leading tobacco and rum manufacturer), that he was a colonel of militia in the British Army then America's top general in the revolutionary war, that he was a major influence in early American politics, and the United State's first President (under the constitution...), among other things?

            You want to focus on one small sliver of Washington's life and then tar him for that as somehow undeserving of any other credit.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

              So, which is more significant and important about Washington? That he owned slaves, or that he was one of the most important businessmen of his era (including being a leading tobacco and rum manufacturer), that he was a colonel of militia in the British Army then America's top general in the revolutionary war, that he was a major influence in early American politics, and the United State's first President (under the constitution...), among other things?

              You want to focus on one small sliver of Washington's life and then tar him for that as somehow undeserving of any other credit.
              Again within the context of this conversation, which is his mural being in a school, his support for slavery is the most important. Slavery isn't something we can gloss over when determining if someone had high enough morals to warrant idolization within a school. If this discussion was about Washington as a politician or general, then there's no reason to bring up slavery. But, that's not the case.

              I don't think slave ownership should be idolized within schools, and that's not something you can remove from someone who owned slaves.
              "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
              - Benjamin Franklin

              The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                Again within the context of this conversation, which is his mural being in a school, his support for slavery is the most important. Slavery isn't something we can gloss over when determining if someone had high enough morals to warrant idolization within a school. If this discussion was about Washington as a politician or general, then there's no reason to bring up slavery. But, that's not the case.

                I don't think slave ownership should be idolized within schools, and that's not something you can remove from someone who owned slaves.
                You are wrong here. You and those removing the mural want to claim that his being a slave owner is the most important thing. If we were to remove that from his life-- that is, he never owned slaves-- he'd still be a massively important figure in American history. If on the other hand, we removed everything from his life that didn't have to do with slavery, we'd have never heard of him as a figure in American history.

                So, it can be demonstrated that his use of slaves as was customary for most large agribusiness owners at the time, is far less significant than his role as a general, President, participant in the founding documents of the US, and other roles he took up during his lifetime.

                I don't think that slave ownership in and of itself should preclude a major figure that had other more significant roles in US history from being included in it in a significant manner.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                  Again within the context of this conversation, which is his mural being in a school, his support for slavery is the most important. Slavery isn't something we can gloss over when determining if someone had high enough morals to warrant idolization within a school. If this discussion was about Washington as a politician or general, then there's no reason to bring up slavery. But, that's not the case.

                  I don't think slave ownership should be idolized within schools, and that's not something you can remove from someone who owned slaves.
                  Are you aware George Washington is the namesake of that school? It's called George Washington High School...no wonder he's in the mural. Nothing in the mural is historically false, correct?

                  I'd imagine if the mural didn't show Washington with slaves or natives, we'd be hearing about how they are trying to HIDE the horrors of Washington. Right?


                  "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                  "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                    You are wrong here. You and those removing the mural want to claim that his being a slave owner is the most important thing. If we were to remove that from his life-- that is, he never owned slaves-- he'd still be a massively important figure in American history. If on the other hand, we removed everything from his life that didn't have to do with slavery, we'd have never heard of him as a figure in American history.

                    So, it can be demonstrated that his use of slaves as was customary for most large agribusiness owners at the time, is far less significant than his role as a general, President, participant in the founding documents of the US, and other roles he took up during his lifetime.
                    That goes against what I just said. You cannot remove the fact that he owned slaves. You can't remove that from his life. Yes, he was the most important figure, yes he was also heinous for owning slaves.

                    I don't think that slave ownership in and of itself should preclude a major figure that had other more significant roles in US history from being included in it in a significant manner.
                    I know you don't. You're coming from a perspective that benefited from slavery. We're all entitled to our own opinion though, I understand why you love Washington and don't care that he owned slaves.
                    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
                      I know you don't. You're coming from a perspective that benefited from slavery. We're all entitled to our own opinion though, I understand why you love Washington and don't care that he owned slaves.
                      How do you know if TAG sides with anyone who benefited from slavery?

                      It's also within the realm of possibility to love Washington and also be disappointed in him for owning slaves and mistreated natives.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Is it possible for Americans of all races to appreciate the sacrifices of all our ancestors regardless of their humble beginnings, or the stature and successes they achieved? Benjamin Franklin advocated for abolitionist causes, he passionately argued for the cause, but he owned slaves.
                        Our history is one of people overcoming unimaginable challenges, entire families from all nations, through circumstances often beyond their control or choosing found themselves in a new world where hardships, struggles and death were the only thing guaranteed.
                        Today we can read ship passenger logs from the early 1600s online from the comfort of our climate controlled homes, when we actually take the time to do so we find most were just children, pressed into servitude or given up by parents in the hopes they would find a life away from oppressive poverty, some people were released from debtors prison or convicted of petty crimes, bail paid in return for servitude and the opportunity to sail in cramped quarters in the hull of rotting decrepit and poorly assembled ships to set foot on a wild untamed wilderness, void of the barest of necessities,.
                        Some were brought to this land as slaves, and the accomplishments of each of these souls should be appreciated and celebrated, Because I as a white American views our history with pride is not slanderous nor offensive to anyone else.
                        Each American family has a history that should instill a sense of pride, without depreciation of others.
                        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                          That goes against what I just said. You cannot remove the fact that he owned slaves. You can't remove that from his life. Yes, he was the most important figure, yes he was also heinous for owning slaves.
                          It's called a thought experiment. We have a whole section on this very board dedicated to alternate history scenarios.

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

                          Not only are thought experiments thoroughly embedded in higher circles of mental effort, they are useful for proving points and theories, as I did in my earlier post.

                          I know you don't. You're coming from a perspective that benefited from slavery. We're all entitled to our own opinion though, I understand why you love Washington and don't care that he owned slaves.
                          I didn't benefit from slavery. My ancestors didn't benefit from slavery. The closest anyone in my lineage came to involvement with slavery was my great grandfather on my mother's side who gave several slaves in Texas their freedom for signing up with his company of rangers in the Texas Revolution.

                          It isn't that I don't care that Washington owned slaves, but rather that it is a minor point in the man's overall lifetime. You on the other hand, want it to be the sole focus of his lifetime. For you, it doesn't matter he headed the American army in the revolution. It doesn't matter to you that he was a party to designing and ratifying the Constitution. You don't care that he was a significant force in American business. All you see is slave owner and you myopically throw away the rest.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                            It's called a thought experiment. We have a whole section on this very board dedicated to alternate history scenarios.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

                            Not only are thought experiments thoroughly embedded in higher circles of mental effort, they are useful for proving points and theories, as I did in my earlier post.
                            This part of the board is dedicated to real history and real current events. There's a reason why fantasy scenarios has a separate section. I cannot accurately judge someone when creating an alternate reality.

                            I didn't benefit from slavery. My ancestors didn't benefit from slavery. The closest anyone in my lineage came to involvement with slavery was my great grandfather on my mother's side who gave several slaves in Texas their freedom for signing up with his company of rangers in the Texas Revolution.

                            It isn't that I don't care that Washington owned slaves, but rather that it is a minor point in the man's overall lifetime. You on the other hand, want it to be the sole focus of his lifetime. For you, it doesn't matter he headed the American army in the revolution. It doesn't matter to you that he was a party to designing and ratifying the Constitution. You don't care that he was a significant force in American business. All you see is slave owner and you myopically throw away the rest.
                            How so, when I said he's the most important figure in American history?
                            "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                            - Benjamin Franklin

                            The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Nikki View Post

                              How do you know if TAG sides with anyone who benefited from slavery?

                              It's also within the realm of possibility to love Washington and also be disappointed in him for owning slaves and mistreated natives.
                              You don't have to support slavery to benefit from it. All Americans except slaves benefited from it.

                              I still want to keep things in the proper context of idolizing Washington at school. It creates a new generation of kids who will see slavery as a "minor point", as TAG puts it. Because, how big of a deal can it be when we honor those guilty of it... If racism wasn't such a big issue still to this day, then ultimately no one would really care. But, that's not the case so naturally people who want to solve it will look for the root cause. Maybe the culture we're fostering, which essentially excuses and even pays homage to white supremacy has a lot to do with the behavior going on.
                              "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                              - Benjamin Franklin

                              The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                                You don't have to support slavery to benefit from it. All Americans except slaves benefited from it.

                                I still want to keep things in the proper context of idolizing Washington at school. It creates a new generation of kids who will see slavery as a "minor point", as TAG puts it. Because, how big of a deal can it be when we honor those guilty of it... If racism wasn't such a big issue still to this day, then ultimately no one would really care. But, that's not the case so naturally people who want to solve it will look for the root cause. Maybe the culture we're fostering, which essentially excuses and even pays homage to white supremacy has a lot to do with the behavior going on.
                                Apparently some blacks benefited too

                                https://www.theroot.com/did-black-pe...​​
                                Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                                Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X