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Should the U.S. give reparations for slavery?

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  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by marktwain View Post

    Meh. Wiki is Coles Notes for debate.

    If MM, to pick recent example wants to believe that the spice trade moved by camel rather than dhow- wiki suffices.....
    You might want to start actually studying history for a change, and stop using Wiki, no longer an acceptable reference for much of anything. Note particularly the strategic location of Acre, bitterly fought over during the Crusades.

    Or you can continue to sound like Ocasio-Cortez.


    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    I'm with Gixxer. Or, as Will Smith likes to say: "Oh, HELL no!"

    Leave a comment:


  • Gixxer86g
    replied
    Originally posted by debakid View Post
    I think they should. If the U.S is an ambassador to some in the middle east when it comes to that specific topic. Why not do the same thing too here. At the very least, they should give the 40 acres and that mule
    Why should people who never kept slaves pay reparations to people who were never slaves?
    Last edited by Gixxer86g; 18 May 19, 14:55.

    Leave a comment:


  • debakid
    replied
    I think they should. If the U.S is an ambassador to some in the middle east when it comes to that specific topic. Why not do the same thing too here. At the very least, they should give the 40 acres and that mule

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by American87 View Post
    The sources on wiki are often unsourced. Sometimes they’re just old webpages with a few paragraphs on them: no sources whatsoever. Also, the wiki editors often don’t know how to interpret sources, and their information is skewed or misleading. I taught a 5th grader who edited Wikipedia at least once.

    Its a a good source for casual reading if you want to find something to buy a book on or if you want the broad outlines of a topic. But using it in a discussion reveals your shallowness to people who actually study the topic.
    Meh. Wiki is Coles Notes for debate.

    If MM, to pick recent example wants to believe that the spice trade moved by camel rather than dhow- wiki suffices.....

    Leave a comment:


  • American87
    replied
    The sources on wiki are often unsourced. Sometimes they’re just old webpages with a few paragraphs on them: no sources whatsoever. Also, the wiki editors often don’t know how to interpret sources, and their information is skewed or misleading. I taught a 5th grader who edited Wikipedia at least once.

    Its a a good source for casual reading if you want to find something to buy a book on or if you want the broad outlines of a topic. But using it in a discussion reveals your shallowness to people who actually study the topic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Half Pint John
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    I do believe that the mods should spin off the Christian discussion to a separate thread, as it's relevance to the reparations debate is tangential...
    that said, there are a couple of commonly accepted facts:
    a. The first crusade was launched in response to the byzantine emperor's plea for aid, as the battle of Mazinkert in 1074 had Been a catastrophic defeat at the hands of the Seljuk Turks.

    b. the Seljuk's had occupied Palestine, and banned Christian pilgrimages. the few Christians trying to slip through had been horribly mistreated.
    c. the Spice trade went through Egypt. The Fatimid dynasty, a Shia Moslem caliphate, had a very tolerant attitude towards Christians when they controlled the Holy Land, and handled the trade well...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...southern_Italy a primer on more causes of the first crusade...
    So the Crusades never happened? Is that your position?

    If you check a map, Egypt is on the far side of the Holy Land. The Spice routes came from the East and went West.

    Need a primer on geography?

    BTW - wiki is not an acceptable reference, nor has it been since it was banned from collegiate resources.[/QUOTE] References[edit]

    1. ^ "Assessment of the status, development and diversification of fisheries-dependent communities: Mazara del Vallo Case study report" (PDF). European Commission. 2010. p. 2. Retrieved 28 September 2012. In the year 827, Mazara was occupied by the Arabs, who made the city an important commercial harbour. That period was probably the most prosperous in the history of Mazara.
    2. ^ Krueger, Hilmar C.; Musca, Giosue (1966). "Review of L'emirato di Bari, 847-871by Giosuè Musca". Speculum. Medieval Academy of America. 41 (1): 761. doi:10.2307/2852342. JSTOR 2852342.
    3. ^ Krueger, Hilmar C. (1969). "Conflict in the Mediterranean before the First Crusade: B. The Italian Cities and the Arabs before 1095". In Baldwin, M. W. A History of the Crusades, vol. I: The First Hundred Years. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press. pp. 40–53.
    4. ^ Jellinek, George (1994). History Through the Opera Glass: From the Rise of Caesar to the Fall of Napoleon. Kahn & Averill. ISBN 0-912483-90-3.
    5. ^ Kenneth M. Setton, "The Byzantine Background to the Italian Renaissance" in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, 100:1 (Feb. 24, 1956), pp. 1–76.
    6. ^ Daftary, Farhad. The Ismāʻı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-37019-1.
    7. ^ Julie Taylor, Muslims in Medieval Italy: The Colony at Lucera, (Rowman & Littlefield Inc., 2003), 18.
    8. ^ Caroline Bruzelius, The Stones of Naples: Church Building in the Angevin Kingdom, 1266-1343, (Yale University Press, 2004), 107.
    9. ^ Previté-Orton (1971), vol. 1, pg. 370
    10. ^ Jump up to:a b Islam in Sicily Archived 2011-07-14 at the Wayback Machine, by Alwi Alatas
    11. ^ Previté-Orton (1971), p. 370
    12. ^ J. B. Bury, History of the Eastern Empire, (Cosimo Classic, 2008), 307.
    13. ^ J. B. Bury, History of the Eastern Empire, 307.
    14. ^ Overview of Italy in the late 9th century at cronologia.leonardo.it
    15. ^ Farhad Daftary, The Isma'ilis: Their History and Doctrines, (Cambridge University Press, 1990), 156.
    16. ^ Jump up to:a b c Alex Metcalfe, Muslims of Medieval Italy, ed. Carole Hillenbrand, (Edinburgh University Press, 2009), 47.
    17. ^ Salvatori 2002, 23; Heywood 1921, 22 n2.
    18. ^ Archived link: From Islam to Christianity: the Case of Sicily, Charles Dalli, page 153. In Religion, ritual and mythology : aspects of identity formation in Europe / edited by Joaquim Carvalho, 2006, ISBN 88-8492-404-9.
    19. ^ Saracen Door and Battle of Palermo
    20. ^ Previte-Orton (1971), pg. 507-11
    21. ^ N.Daniel: The Arabs; op cit; p.154.
    22. ^ A.Lowe: The Barrier and the bridge, op cit;p.92.
    23. ^ Aubé, Pierre (2001). Roger Ii De Sicile - Un Normand En Méditerranée. Payot.
    24. ^ Abulafia, David (1988). Frederick II: A Medieval Emperor. London: Allen Lane. ISBN 0-7139-9004-X.
    25. ^ "The Military Factor in Social Change Vol. 2". google.it.
    26. ^ Julie Taylor. Muslims in Medieval Italy: The Colony at Lucera. Lanham, Md.: Lexington Books. 2003.
    27. ^ Ataullah Bogdan Kopanski. Islamization of Shqeptaret: The clas of Religions in Medieval Albania. Archived 2009-11-25 at the Wayback Machine
    28. ^ "Mercenaries in Medieval and Renaissance Europe". google.it.
    29. ^ "Italian City States 1250-1453 by Sanderson Beck". beck.org.
    30. ^ Jump up to:a b c Kreutz, 45.
    31. ^ Crouzet-Pavan, Elisabeth; Cochrane, Lydia G. (16 February 2005). Venice Triumphant: The Horizons of a Myth. JHU Press. p. 60.
    32. ^ Skinner, 32–33.
    33. ^ Skinner, see first chapter. See also the vast literature on the coming of the Normans to southern Italy.
    34. ^ Skinner, 2–3.
    35. ^ Michele Amari, Storia dei Musulmani di Sicilia, lt=Le Monnier, 1854, Vol. I, p. 364
    36. ^ Barbara Kreutz (1996). Before the Normans: Southern Italy in the Ninth and Tenth Centuries. University of Pennsylvania Press. pp. 25–28.
    37. ^ Skinner, 33, based on Leo of Ostia and the Chronica Monasterii Cassinensis.
    38. ^ Mary Stroll, The Medieval Abbey of Farfa: Target of Papal and Imperial Ambitions, (Brill, 1997), 32-33.
    39. ^ Mary Stroll, 24-25.
    40. ^ Peter Partner (1 Jan 1972). The Lands of St. Peter: The Papal State in the Middle Ages and the Early Renaissance (illustrated ed.). University of California Press. pp. 81–2. ISBN 9780520021815.
    41. ^ Joranson, 355 and n 19.
    42. ^ Brown, R. Allen (1984). The Normans. Woodsbridge, Suffolk: Boydell & Brewer. p. 97. ISBN 0-85115-359-3.
    43. ^ Casula, Francesco Cesare (1994). La Storia di Sardegna. Sassari, it: Carlo Delfino Editore. ISBN 978-88-7138-084-1.
    44. ^ Omnia cum plano tenuit montana tyrampnus (III, 74). Bruce 2006, 132. For the Latin text of the Liber, cf. this PDF.
    45. ^ Bruce 2006, 134.
    46. ^ Tyerman 2006, 55.
    47. ^ Between Salt Water and Holy Water: A History of Southern Italy, by Tommaso Astarita.
    48. ^ Georgina Masson (1957). Frederick II of Hohenstaufen. A Life. London: Secker & Warburg. ISBN 0-436-27350-0.
    Further reading

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    Excellent...you starting to wake up!
    Perhaps..

    Anyhow, the bulk of the spice trade went by sea to the head of the gulf of Suez, and occasionally, through the Red sea- Nile canal, the ancient waterway , when it was open. The Fatimid's and the Italian principalities had reached a 'modus operati' after the Sicilian wars ceased. See my prev. link.

    the Seljuk's were relatively recent converts to Islam. and rather fanatical.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by marktwain View Post
    MM! You are starting to scare me....
    Excellent...you starting to wake up!

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    MM! You are starting to scare me....

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    I do believe that the mods should spin off the Christian discussion to a separate thread, as it's relevance to the reparations debate is tangential...
    that said, there are a couple of commonly accepted facts:
    a. The first crusade was launched in response to the byzantine emperor's plea for aid, as the battle of Mazinkert in 1074 had Been a catastrophic defeat at the hands of the Seljuk Turks.

    b. the Seljuk's had occupied Palestine, and banned Christian pilgrimages. the few Christians trying to slip through had been horribly mistreated.
    c. the Spice trade went through Egypt. The Fatimid dynasty, a Shia Moslem caliphate, had a very tolerant attitude towards Christians when they controlled the Holy Land, and handled the trade well...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...southern_Italy a primer on more causes of the first crusade...
    So the Crusades never happened? Is that your position?

    If you check a map, Egypt is on the far side of the Holy Land. The Spice routes came from the East and went West.

    Need a primer on geography?

    BTW - wiki is not an acceptable reference, nor has it been since it was banned from collegiate resources.[/QUOTE]

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_VII_1870.jpg

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by marktwain View Post


    More on the E=Mountain Man;n5103909]

    Seriously? It was the Church that started the Holy Crusades in order to take control of the rich spice trading routes. It was the Church who destroyed the Templars for their money and lands. It was the Church that sponsored the Inquisition which was all about seizing money and property. It was the Church that rap[ed and enslaved and butchered the New World. And it was the Church that made a deal with the Nazis to protect themselves, said nothing and did nothing about the mass extinction of the Jews and then provided Vatican diplomatic passports, sanctuaries and transportation to help the murderer and torturers out of Germany to escape prosecution. The Church has a foul history when it comes to civil rights.

    And none of this has anything to do with 21st century demands for reparations by people who have never know slavery on their entire lives but whose ancestors were often enslaved in the past by Catholics.

    NO REPARATIONS, PERIOD.
    I do believe that the mods should spin off the Christian discussion to a separate thread, as it's relevance to the reparations debate is tangential...
    that said, there are a couple of commonly accepted facts:
    a. The first crusade was launched in response to the byzantine emperor's plea for aid, as the battle of Mazinkert in 1074 had Been a catastrophic defeat at the hands of the Seljuk Turks.

    b. the Seljuk's had occupied Palestine, and banned Christian pilgrimages. the few Christians trying to slip through had been horribly mistreated.
    c. the Spice trade went through Egypt. The Fatimid dynasty, a Shia Moslem caliphate, had a very tolerant attitude towards Christians when they controlled the Holy Land, and handled the trade well...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...southern_Italy a primer on more causes of the first crusade...[/QUOTE]

    So the Crusades never happened? Is that your position?

    If you check a map, Egypt is on the far side of the Holy Land. The Spice routes came from the East and went West.

    Need a primer on geography?

    BTW - wiki is not an acceptable reference, nor has it been since it was banned from collegiate resources.

    Leave a comment:


  • Massena
    replied
    Actually, the First Crusade was in response to a call for help from the Eastern Roman Emperor. The Pope sold it as a religious crusade in order to get the troops to go. And those that went, especially those knights and nobles who would not inherit, went and fought for land and profit.

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied



    More on the E=Mountain Man;n5103909]

    Seriously? It was the Church that started the Holy Crusades in order to take control of the rich spice trading routes. It was the Church who destroyed the Templars for their money and lands. It was the Church that sponsored the Inquisition which was all about seizing money and property. It was the Church that rap[ed and enslaved and butchered the New World. And it was the Church that made a deal with the Nazis to protect themselves, said nothing and did nothing about the mass extinction of the Jews and then provided Vatican diplomatic passports, sanctuaries and transportation to help the murderer and torturers out of Germany to escape prosecution. The Church has a foul history when it comes to civil rights.

    And none of this has anything to do with 21st century demands for reparations by people who have never know slavery on their entire lives but whose ancestors were often enslaved in the past by Catholics.

    NO REPARATIONS, PERIOD.[/QUOTE]

    I do believe that the mods should spin off the Christian discussion to a separate thread, as it's relevance to the reparations debate is tangential...
    that said, there are a couple of commonly accepted facts:
    a. The first crusade was launched in response to the byzantine emperor's plea for aid, as the battle of Mazinkert in 1074 had Been a catastrophic defeat at the hands of the Seljuk Turks.

    b. the Seljuk's had occupied Palestine, and banned Christian pilgrimages. the few Christians trying to slip through had been horribly mistreated.
    c. the Spice trade went through Egypt. The Fatimid dynasty, a Shia Moslem caliphate, had a very tolerant attitude towards Christians when they controlled the Holy Land, and handled the trade well...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...southern_Italy a primer on more causes of the first crusade...
    Last edited by marktwain; 17 Mar 19, 18:20.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by nastle View Post

    really ? he left a church and well defined doctrine when he was killed ? which historical source is that ?
    Certainly not the Bible...

    Leave a comment:

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