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Why Won't the FAA Ground the Boeing 737 Max 8?

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  • #91
    What many don't realize, is that even with the aircraft on autopilot, the pilots are still kept busy doing stuff. For instance, on a long international flight, they are talking on the radio with ATC, being handed off to others and changing frequencies. Monitoring fuel usage and different component temperatures, constantly keeping aware of the nearest divert airfield, it's distance and heading, switching between fuel tanks to keep CoG correct, etc, etc.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

      In my employment prior to most recent job, I was with one of those Tier One subcontractors. Granted, we were mostly focused on exterior "skin" composite parts, and some interior structure/paneling ones as well, yet my experience was that Boeing was especially "picky" on the quality of what we provided. The FOD issues in the link are rather minor and very infrequent as far as I could see. Admittedly, a 'zero of any' would be ideal, but given complexities of production and volume of aircraft, this seems rather small percentage and minimumal content to be serious factor in these two crashes.

      The MCAS is another layer of "bells and whistles" which appears to be there to offset the shortage in general pilot training (total hours of flight time experience) and also shortage in adequate training and familiarity with the Max-8 aircraft. While there appears to be residual issues with the software, there also appears to be possible undetected and un-repaired damage to the sensors for the MCAS involved in both of these crashes.

      The major factors appear to be the lack of pilot training and skill and shortage of proper maintenance and repair on the aircraft. As mentioned already here, two items all too common with "second tier" airlines. The MCAS is not essential to fly the 737, competent pilot skills, training and understanding of the aircraft's performance and flight envelope should allow an aircrew to know how to avoid a stall in the first place. Also, sufficient training in the Max-8 avionics would have allowed the flightcrew to know how to completely shut off the MCAS and/or auto-pilot functions to avoid those systems interfering with total manual control of the airplane.

      Human error in the cockpit as well as in administrative level of recruiting capable pilots, training them sufficiently, and providing the proper level of maintenance by ground service staff would still seem to be the main causes here.
      I work in a precision engineering company. We mostly supply medical diagnostics and lab equipment companies in Europe and the USA but we also supply those tier one companies (we have all the correct certifications). When entire modules such as landing gear assemblies are being built and tested by suppliers the level of interaction by Boeing (or Airbus etc) quality engineers has to be ubiquitous. They have to have eyes and ears everywhere from procedure development, training, equipment specification, maintenance, manufacturing, testing, packaging and logistics. I donít think that the appropriate levels of vendor management is in place. You can check the **** out of a process or procedure but you first have to assure yourself that the process or procedure is correct.

      I spoke to an Irish pilot about the issues with the 737 Max 8's a few weeks ago. He said that it was primarily a pilot training issue.
      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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      • #93
        Well this can't be good. Latest is that Boeing knew about the problem well before hand and didn't tell anyone:

        https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...es-11557087129

        You'll live, only the best get killed.

        -General Charles de Gaulle

        Comment


        • #94
          Hi

          Is there anything akin to Corporate Manslaughter in the USA, to make the fat suited cats sit up and smell the coffee?

          Regards

          Andy H
          "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

          "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Andy H View Post
            Hi

            Is there anything akin to Corporate Manslaughter in the USA, to make the fat suited cats sit up and smell the coffee?

            Regards

            Andy H
            Depends if there is an investigation into the matter...which after this report seems likely. Only a few days ago, some big pharmaceutical company CEO and a few other executives were found guilty of bribing doctors to prescribe larger amounts of painkillers to patients who did not need that much, thus contributing to the opioid crisis . (racketeering)

            https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...se/3561518002/

            What exactly Boeing knew and when is at this time a matter of speculation, but someone's head will roll after these latest revelations.
            You'll live, only the best get killed.

            -General Charles de Gaulle

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

              I work in a precision engineering company. We mostly supply medical diagnostics and lab equipment companies in Europe and the USA but we also supply those tier one companies (we have all the correct certifications). When entire modules such as landing gear assemblies are being built and tested by suppliers the level of interaction by Boeing (or Airbus etc) quality engineers has to be ubiquitous. They have to have eyes and ears everywhere from procedure development, training, equipment specification, maintenance, manufacturing, testing, packaging and logistics. I donít think that the appropriate levels of vendor management is in place. You can check the **** out of a process or procedure but you first have to assure yourself that the process or procedure is correct.

              I spoke to an Irish pilot about the issues with the 737 Max 8's a few weeks ago. He said that it was primarily a pilot training issue.
              See bold and red highlight!


              There lies the crux of the issue ~ how much can one make modern aircraft/airliners "idiot" proof to compensate for the lack of training and competence of the aircrews flying same?

              I'll admit to only a handful of hours of stick time, but even I can admit that anyone in the cockpit of a commercial aircraft should have hours measured in thousands rather than a couple of hundreds, AND that such aircrews should be capable in flying the aircraft without "auto" aids, and be trained in how to effectively override such automation when needed. Such appears to be not the case in either of these events. Yet many ignorant idiots want to hold Boeing accountable for not providing an aircraft that should have been flyable by untrained, incompetent idiots!

              An aircraft able to fly "itself" still remains beyond our technological capability. ...

              Would seem in both cases of these Max-8 crashes the aircrews were lacking in either one or both qualifications and probably should not not have been hired and flying such. Underscores the risks one takes when in third world/tier nations using their transport systems which often are far under the standards we'd expect here in the First World/First Tier environments.

              Buyer/User(passenger) beware ...
              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                See bold and red highlight!


                There lies the crux of the issue ~ how much can one make modern aircraft/airliners "idiot" proof to compensate for the lack of training and competence of the aircrews flying same?

                I'll admit to only a handful of hours of stick time, but even I can admit that anyone in the cockpit of a commercial aircraft should have hours measured in thousands rather than a couple of hundreds, AND that such aircrews should be capable in flying the aircraft without "auto" aids, and be trained in how to effectively override such automation when needed. Such appears to be not the case in either of these events. Yet many ignorant idiots want to hold Boeing accountable for not providing an aircraft that should have been flyable by untrained, incompetent idiots!

                An aircraft able to fly "itself" still remains beyond our technological capability. ...

                Would seem in both cases of these Max-8 crashes the aircrews were lacking in either one or both qualifications and probably should not not have been hired and flying such. Underscores the risks one takes when in third world/tier nations using their transport systems which often are far under the standards we'd expect here in the First World/First Tier environments.

                Buyer/User(passenger) beware ...
                Hi G David Bock

                So in your estimation Boeing aren't culpable in anyway for all the issues that have emerged, let alone the specifics of the 2 fatal crashes?

                Regards

                And H
                "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Andy H View Post

                  Hi G David Bock

                  So in your estimation Boeing aren't culpable in anyway for all the issues that have emerged, let alone the specifics of the 2 fatal crashes?

                  Regards

                  And H
                  That in red highlight is not my estimation, rather your misread or distortion.
                  There may be flaws or glitches with the MCAS, but Boeing would be only partially culpable at best. Issues of proper groundcrew maintenance of the system and adequate aircrew training seem to be the larger factors of these two crashes.
                  TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                    See bold and red highlight!


                    There lies the crux of the issue ~ how much can one make modern aircraft/airliners "idiot" proof to compensate for the lack of training and competence of the aircrews flying same?

                    I'll admit to only a handful of hours of stick time, but even I can admit that anyone in the cockpit of a commercial aircraft should have hours measured in thousands rather than a couple of hundreds, AND that such aircrews should be capable in flying the aircraft without "auto" aids, and be trained in how to effectively override such automation when needed. Such appears to be not the case in either of these events. Yet many ignorant idiots want to hold Boeing accountable for not providing an aircraft that should have been flyable by untrained, incompetent idiots!

                    An aircraft able to fly "itself" still remains beyond our technological capability. ...

                    Would seem in both cases of these Max-8 crashes the aircrews were lacking in either one or both qualifications and probably should not not have been hired and flying such. Underscores the risks one takes when in third world/tier nations using their transport systems which often are far under the standards we'd expect here in the First World/First Tier environments.

                    Buyer/User(passenger) beware ...
                    Hi G David Brock

                    Well since 1945 there have been some 788 Airline crashes in the USA, resulting in the death of over 10,500 souls.
                    Now I accept that the US has the highest % of air ravel within its borders, so its natural that it tops the list for most airline crashes and there are many factors including incompetent untrained American pilots who couldn't step up to the plate, thus causing a crash. However, I also accept that in many cases the aircraft companies were to blame for bad designs and equipment, which is a distinct possibility.

                    Regards

                    Andy H
                    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Andy H View Post

                      Hi G David Brock

                      Well since 1945 there have been some 788 Airline crashes in the USA, resulting in the death of over 10,500 souls.
                      Now I accept that the US has the highest % of air ravel within its borders, so its natural that it tops the list for most airline crashes and there are many factors including incompetent untrained American pilots who couldn't step up to the plate, thus causing a crash. However, I also accept that in many cases the aircraft companies were to blame for bad designs and equipment, which is a distinct possibility.

                      Regards

                      Andy H
                      You are talking about a span of nearly 75 years and a long range of factors. Over that time not only has aircraft design improved, but so has radar guidance and air traffic control, weather forecasting, radio navigation aids, aircraft avionics, pilot training and requirements, etc. There may have been some "bad" designs and equipment, but that is where ongoing testing and design improvements have come about to create improvements.

                      One would have to chart out and examine this whole range to get gauges on specifics, but IIRC, the vast majority tend to be "pilot error". Also, looking at a more global scale one will see it isn't just USA aircraft and aircraft makers whom have been party here.

                      Have you actually flown an aircraft?
                      I think you'd see it isn't as easy as you might infer, and the "incompetent untrained American pilots who couldn't step up to the plate" have been very few, especially in recent decades where most come from extensive military experience prior.

                      Yes, volume of "air ravel" might be part of the larger numbers, but many other factors play, and even a small error of a fraction of degree can be one. Precision and specifics can be difficult for humans to achieve 100% of the time, as shown by you calling me "Brock" when it's really "Bock".
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                      Comment


                      • Hi G David Bock

                        Apologies for the errant R.

                        The reason I posted the figures for US airline crashes and deaths was to highlight that despite the vast majority of these crews being American and thus tier one trained and operating in a sophisticated transport environment, crap still happens. Yes their are multiple reasons as to why planes crash, inc manufacturing faults.
                        I'm sure we've all seen plenty of Air Crash Investigation, to note that there have been many instances where the same set of circumstances brought down one plane but not another.

                        For the record the UK is fourth in terms of crashes and victims.

                        Regards

                        Andy H
                        "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                        "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                          Hi G David Bock

                          Apologies for the errant R.

                          The reason I posted the figures for US airline crashes and deaths was to highlight that despite the vast majority of these crews being American and thus tier one trained and operating in a sophisticated transport environment, crap still happens. Yes their are multiple reasons as to why planes crash, inc manufacturing faults.
                          I'm sure we've all seen plenty of Air Crash Investigation, to note that there have been many instances where the same set of circumstances brought down one plane but not another.

                          For the record the UK is fourth in terms of crashes and victims.

                          Regards

                          Andy H
                          And the missing "t" ?

                          My point is, going back as far as1945, nearly 75 years ago, spans a wide range of time and factors. Not only has aircraft design gone through constant improvement, but so has other factors such radar, navigation, improved charts/maps, improved weather forecast, radio, ATC, etc. Much of this leap was learned the hard way in WWII where what might have been decades of improvement in peacetime was done in just several years. One area where much of these hard learned lessons occurred was in flying the Hump, where over a four year span there were nearly as many air transport crashes as the figure you show for 1945 to present.
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hump
                          Your figure would suggest an average of over ten crashes a year, but actual figures show that while the number per year was much higher back in 1945, as time progressed the average was in decline. Reflecting the range of improvements. Usual gauge is to rate crashes per miles flown and that also shows steady improvement. While a majority of aircraft crashes tend to be attributed to "pilot error", admittedly some are due to mechanical reasons, and USA aircraft manufacturers have no monopoly on these.

                          Again, I'd recommend you pony up a few quid and go to your nearest flying school and make use of their "introductory offer" to go up in a small plane for a half hour to hour and try your own hand at flying, with an instructor beside you, and get a dose of real world experience at how this all works. Once back safely on the ground you might gain a better knowledge and/or respect of what this all entails.

                          BTW, while there have been issues with the MCAS, again this is a cause of perhaps going too far to make commercial airlines "idiot proof" as the phrase goes. With only two crashes so far, this is not an excessive case considering the assorted factors that come into play. While flying is safer now than it ever has been, there remains no shortages of hazards in living, or traveling.

                          Heck, even high heels can be dangerous;

                          London Bridge's youngest victim died when she slipped in high heels attempting to flee terrorists

                          ...
                          https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ndation-widget
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                          Comment


                          • Can Boeing ever recover from this?


                            American Airlines (AAL) pilots reportedly confronted Boeing (BA) about the new features it had added to the 737 Max 8 ó after the first deadly crash but before the second in Ethiopia that occurred in March, according to an audio recording obtained by CBS News.

                            In a tense November 27 meeting between the pilotsí union and the aerospace giant after the Lion Air crash in October, airplane operators expressed frustration with the 737 Max, CBS reported on Tuesday.

                            In the audio, the pilots are heard complaining that they were unaware of the system operating on their planes after the first crash.

                            "We flat out deserve to know what is on our airplanes," according to an unidentified pilot obtained by CBS.

                            "These guys didn't even know the damn system was on the airplane ó nor did anybody else," another said. "We're the last line of defense to being in that smoking hole. And we need the knowledge.Ē



                            An unidentified Boeing official heard on the audio said that the pilots didnít need to be aware of that information since chances of that same crash happening again was remote.

                            https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/b...171238960.html
                            "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                            "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                            Comment


                            • Hi

                              Yep saw this a few days ago and Boeing is more than complicit and culpable in the events that unfolded.
                              Equally the FAA seems to be nothing more than a schill authority, leaving more than a fair % of the certification to Boeing
                              itself, with the FAA little more than rubber stamping Boeing's testing and certs. Boeing's power and pull far outweighed that
                              off the FAA. Lets hope these tragedies curb Boeings almost negligent arrogance.

                              Regards

                              Andy H
                              "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                              "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                                Hi

                                Is there anything akin to Corporate Manslaughter in the USA, to make the fat suited cats sit up and smell the coffee?

                                Regards

                                Andy H
                                There have been executives who were charged with homicide due to corporate activity, it's very rare though.
                                "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                                "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                                Comment

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