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Why Won't the FAA Ground the Boeing 737 Max 8?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post

    Listened to a very good discussion on firearms development and issues and something struck me. In the discussion it was noted that firearms are one particular industry in which the customer demands absolute reliability over thousands of cycles by a machine. This makes entry into the industry nearly prohibitive today, whereas in the past a firearm was treated like any other mechanical device and failure rates were expected. Expected to be minimal, but not treated as a disaster.

    Aviation is pretty much the same thing. No one expects their car, bus, etc to have the same absolute reliability of an aircraft. Now truly, this is why air travel is the safest form of travel and has remained so for quite some time. But it also creates a circumstance where the public expects and demands absolute reliability at all times, and treats anything that happens as a deliberate act of negligence. Aircraft are incredibly complex machines. Flaws occur. Accidents will happen, and they won't always be predictable and especially not deliberate.

    Could you imagine if the brakes locked up on a city bus causing a fatal wreck, and every city bus in the nation by that manufacturer was immediately taken off the road until a thorough investigation took place and an absolutely reliable solution could be found to make the bus absolutely reliable at all times? You'd cripple public transportation over what would still essentially be the possibility of an extremely unlikely occurrence.
    If something fails on a bus it can stop and wait for assistance. How do you stop an airliner in mid air? Be sensible.
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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    • #77
      Originally posted by MarkV View Post

      If something fails on a bus it can stop and wait for assistance. How do you stop an airliner in mid air? Be sensible.
      Oh I am sensible. Just playing devil's advocate here. As a society we've reached a point where we accept nothing less than a 0% failure rate on certain very specific mechanical devices. A rate that we would never expect from other devices, indeed we would think something was horribly wrong if some devices didn't regularly fail.
      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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      • #78
        Originally posted by MarkV View Post

        If something fails on a bus it can stop and wait for assistance. How do you stop an airliner in mid air? Be sensible.
        I too am. 100% safety is a horribly expensive proposition. While a bus crash can injure or kill as many people as a smaller commercial plane crash can. But, there is far less push for 100% safety on roads than there is with aircraft. In most cases, both the bus and aircraft can manage to get to a state of safety where the passengers and crew can debark without further problem. That is the bus can stop, the plane can land. Out-and-out just drop from the sky and crash aircraft disasters are exceedingly rare. Most aircraft crashes occur on take off or landing.

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        • #79
          As far as that Lufthansa video goes, they were flying the plane during the landing. It's harder to tell, because Airbus aircraft don't have regular yokes. They have short sidesticks, just like an F16. Pilots are like nuclear engineers--they don't get paid the big money for the mundane stuff, but for when it's an "Oh Shiit" moment. Flying long segments on autopilot keeps them sharp for unexpected occurrences and landings. Some airlines continually train for those one-in-a-million situations, others don't.

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          • #80
            Hi

            Several American Airlines have now extended the groundings till July and August, in an attempt to give confidence to the travelling US public about the planes safety over the summer period.

            Frankly I doubt they'll have a stampede to fly on those planes in the near future.

            Regards

            Andy H
            I
            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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            • #81
              Source: Boeing whistleblowers report 737 Max problems to FAA

              ...
              Among the complaints is a previously unreported issue involving damage to the wiring of the angle of attack sensor by a foreign object, according to the source.

              Boeing has reportedly had previous issues with foreign object debris in its manufacturing process; The New York Times reported metal shavings were found near wiring of Boeing 787 Dreamliner planes, and the Air Force stopped deliveries of the Boeing KC-46 tanker after foreign object debris was found in some of the planes coming off the production line.

              Other reports by the whistleblowers involve concerns about the MCAS control cut-out switches, which disengage the MCAS software, according to the source.
              ...
              https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...L&ocid=msnbcrd
              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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              • #82
                Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                As far as that Lufthansa video goes, they were flying the plane during the landing. It's harder to tell, because Airbus aircraft don't have regular yokes. They have short sidesticks, just like an F16. Pilots are like nuclear engineers--they don't get paid the big money for the mundane stuff, but for when it's an "Oh Shiit" moment. Flying long segments on autopilot keeps them sharp for unexpected occurrences and landings. Some airlines continually train for those one-in-a-million situations, others don't.
                Actually, increasing evidence from the ATSB shows that flying long hours on autopilot is boring, dulls the senses, slows reaction times and leads to pilots often missing critical developments. Hard to "stay sharp" hour after hour doing nothing.

                Increasingly, many pilots are falling asleep in the cockpit.
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post



                  Increasingly, many pilots are falling asleep in the cockpit.
                  Got a link for that?

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post



                    Increasingly, many pilots are falling asleep in the cockpit.
                    All of them at the same time?. All airliners have two many have three.
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                      All of them at the same time?. All airliners have two many have three.
                      Not long ago an airliner overflew its destination for an hour and a a half - both pilots were asleep. The new digitalized cockpits are meant to be operated by as few pilots - high priced help - as possible....usually just two except long flights over water.
                      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        Not long ago an airliner overflew its destination for an hour and a a half - both pilots were asleep. The new digitalized cockpits are meant to be operated by as few pilots - high priced help - as possible....usually just two except long flights over water.
                        In 2013 (six years is not long ago?) and the pilots fell asleep not because of the boredom of having an autopilot but because they had had grossly inadequate sleep the previous two days. In such a situation one should be damn glad of the autopilot.
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Increasingly, many pilots are falling asleep in the cockpit.
                          The most common cause of crashes is pilot error. They are by far the weakest link in the chain.
                          If, and it's a big if, pilots are falling asleep during long flights then $30 worth of wearable technology can wake them up.
                          "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                          validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                            Source: Boeing whistleblowers report 737 Max problems to FAA

                            ...
                            Among the complaints is a previously unreported issue involving damage to the wiring of the angle of attack sensor by a foreign object, according to the source.

                            Boeing has reportedly had previous issues with foreign object debris in its manufacturing process; The New York Times reported metal shavings were found near wiring of Boeing 787 Dreamliner planes, and the Air Force stopped deliveries of the Boeing KC-46 tanker after foreign object debris was found in some of the planes coming off the production line.

                            Other reports by the whistleblowers involve concerns about the MCAS control cut-out switches, which disengage the MCAS software, according to the source.
                            ...
                            https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...L&ocid=msnbcrd
                            The fact that Boeing has FOD issues speaks volumes about their manufacturing controls. Remember that most of the plane is made by Tier One subcontractors but Boeing are required to supervise them. These issues shows an alarming level of complacency by Boeing and serious gaps in their quality procedures (or the application of those procedures). They have serious questions to answer about inspection, supplier quality audits and internal quality audits.
                            "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                            validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                            "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

                              The fact that Boeing has FOD issues speaks volumes about their manufacturing controls. Remember that most of the plane is made by Tier One subcontractors but Boeing are required to supervise them. These issues shows an alarming level of complacency by Boeing and serious gaps in their quality procedures (or the application of those procedures). They have serious questions to answer about inspection, supplier quality audits and internal quality audits.
                              In my employment prior to most recent job, I was with one of those Tier One subcontractors. Granted, we were mostly focused on exterior "skin" composite parts, and some interior structure/paneling ones as well, yet my experience was that Boeing was especially "picky" on the quality of what we provided. The FOD issues in the link are rather minor and very infrequent as far as I could see. Admittedly, a 'zero of any' would be ideal, but given complexities of production and volume of aircraft, this seems rather small percentage and minimumal content to be serious factor in these two crashes.

                              The MCAS is another layer of "bells and whistles" which appears to be there to offset the shortage in general pilot training (total hours of flight time experience) and also shortage in adequate training and familiarity with the Max-8 aircraft. While there appears to be residual issues with the software, there also appears to be possible undetected and un-repaired damage to the sensors for the MCAS involved in both of these crashes.

                              The major factors appear to be the lack of pilot training and skill and shortage of proper maintenance and repair on the aircraft. As mentioned already here, two items all too common with "second tier" airlines. The MCAS is not essential to fly the 737, competent pilot skills, training and understanding of the aircraft's performance and flight envelope should allow an aircrew to know how to avoid a stall in the first place. Also, sufficient training in the Max-8 avionics would have allowed the flightcrew to know how to completely shut off the MCAS and/or auto-pilot functions to avoid those systems interfering with total manual control of the airplane.

                              Human error in the cockpit as well as in administrative level of recruiting capable pilots, training them sufficiently, and providing the proper level of maintenance by ground service staff would still seem to be the main causes here.
                              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                              • #90
                                Text is a bit different than the titles suggest ...
                                More Whistleblower Complaints Emerge against BOEING 737 MAX...

                                Pilots demand better training...
                                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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