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Why Won't the FAA Ground the Boeing 737 Max 8?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
    First official report on the Ethiopian crash suggest that the MCAS system may have been at fault and even though the pilots followed Boeing's instructions on how to rectify the problem they could not regain control
    From what I read, they turned it off but then turned it back on.

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    • #47
      With what I've heard about the Ethiopian crash, there seem to be a few factors in play. 1) The MCAS system might have been the initial cause of the sequence of events. 2) The pilots turned it off and were trying to gain manual control. 3) The plane was going Very Fast for the particular conditions. 4) The pilots turned MCAS back on....which according to experts would have been contraindicated by the speed of the plane....in fact turning on MCAS at that speed would likely CAUSE a crash.
      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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      • #48
        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        With what I've heard about the Ethiopian crash, there seem to be a few factors in play. 1) The MCAS system might have been the initial cause of the sequence of events. 2) The pilots turned it off and were trying to gain manual control. 3) The plane was going Very Fast for the particular conditions. 4) The pilots turned MCAS back on....which according to experts would have been contraindicated by the speed of the plane....in fact turning on MCAS at that speed would likely CAUSE a crash.
        Apparently even if the pilots switch MCAS off if the sensors keep giving false reports it switches itself on again. They can switch off the entire system and revert to purely manual but at speed the elevator becomes to heavy to move manually and they have to switch the system back on.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by MarkV View Post

          Apparently even if the pilots switch MCAS off if the sensors keep giving false reports it switches itself on again. They can switch off the entire system and revert to purely manual but at speed the elevator becomes to heavy to move manually and they have to switch the system back on.
          It's all servo motors from what I've heard. The controls don't get "heavy" since it's not like the cockpit controls are directly connected to the surfaces by cables. Also, you don't disconnect MCAS, you turn off the sensors that control it.

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          • #50
            That's correct from what I know. I don't really like it, as it removes 'feel' from the plane, and I think in the Ethiopia case might have made the pilots think they were accomplishing, or not accomplishing, something and encouraged them to make errors. But I do get that it's more efficient than running cabling and so on to give proper feedback.
            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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            • #51
              Originally posted by johns624 View Post
              you don't disconnect MCAS, you turn off the sensors that control it.
              Apparently they can't switch the sensors off but can switch MCAS off temporarily
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                Apparently they can't switch the sensors off but can switch MCAS off temporarily
                Wrong. You turn off the two stabilizer trim cutout switches.
                https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1R322M
                I'm not sticking up for Boeing because it's American, I'm sticking up for them because it was a training issue. The article also states that the pilots pulled out the manual to try to figure out a solution. If they'd had proper, in-depth training, it would be an automatic reflex. My brother is a Airbus A320 Captain for a major American airline and much prefers it over the Boeing, but even he knew what to do. AOA sensors are damaged all the time. I trust the training given on the major NA, EU and Oceania airlines, after that, there's only a few that I would fly on.

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                • #53
                  I much prefer the Asian airlines, they always come off as friendlier. But I agree, pilot competence is pretty variable outside of your major nation carriers. Only national airline that I wouldn't fly on but I trust the competence is international flights on some of the muslim national carriers.....because if I've got to be in the air for 6+ hours, I want a glass of scotch.
                  Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                  • #54
                    The 2 best Asian airlines are probably Singapore and Cathay Pacific. They were both started by the Brits and have large expat pilot groups. That way, they don't have the Asian "defer to seniority" complex. JAL, ANA and Korean are good and getting better but after that, it's slim pickings.

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                    • #55
                      The chairman of Boeing acknowledged Thursday for the first time that a new maneuvering system was responsible for two plane crashes that killed almost 350 people, and he apologized to the families and friends of the victims.

                      "We at Boeing are sorry for the lives lost in the recent 737 accidents and are relentlessly focused on safety to ensure tragedies like this never happen again," CEO Dennis Muilenburg said in a videotaped statement posted on Twitter.

                      Muilenburg said the details of airline accidents normally await a final report from governments, "but with the release of the preliminary report of the Ethiopian Flight 302 accident investigation, it is apparent that in both flights, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, known as MCAS, activated in response to erroneous angle of attack information."

                      That preliminary report, issued Thursday, indicated the crew of the Ethiopian Airlines jet that crashed last month, killing all 157 people aboard, performed all procedures recommended by the aerospace giant but failed to gain control of the doomed aircraft.

                      The report reveals details of the crew's intense but ill-fated efforts to save the Boeing 737 Max from catastrophe.

                      Muilenburg, who spoke from the floor of a Boeing hangar, said the history of the aviation industry shows that most accidents are caused by a "chain of events," and the latest tragedies are no exception.

                      "We know we can break one of those chain links in these two accidents," he said. "As pilots have told us, erroneous activation of the MCAS function can add to what is already a high workload environment. It's our responsibility to eliminate this risk. We own it, and we know how to do it."

                      The jet experienced “nose dive conditions” almost immediately after takeoff, Ethiopian Minister of Transport Dagmawit Moges said.

                      "The crew performed all the procedures repeatedly provided by the manufacturer but were not able to control the aircraft," Moges said at the news conference in the capital, Addis Ababa.

                      Peter Goelz, former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board, said the report thickens the cloud hanging over Boeing and the FAA since the tragedy, the second crash of a Boeing 737 Max in five months.

                      Boeing updated its instructions on handling such an emergency after a Lion Air crash in Indonesia in October that killed all 189 people aboard.

                      "The news is that the pilots followed the instructions from Boeing that were endorsed by the FAA, and it didn't save the plane," Goelz told USA TODAY. "I don't see these planes getting back in the air anytime soon."

                      The report recommends that the flight control system should be reviewed by Boeing and that aviation authorities should verify the system before the aircraft is released to operation, Moges said.
                      https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ng/3361880002/

                      Hi

                      Well I guess being 2nd tier airline made little difference, in that the pilots followed the instructions (given by Boeing) and their training, but to no avail as the tier one plane manufacturer ****ed up!

                      Regards

                      Andy H
                      "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                      "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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                      • #56
                        Yeah, well, why wait for a decent report if you can have a go at it anyway.
                        I wonder how much Boeing is gonna have to pay up for this, lawyers will be swarming over this.
                        "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return"

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                        • #57
                          The problem here is that Boeing, and the aircraft industry in general are adopting technology that is complex at a rate above that which it can be absorbed by the users.



                          What's happening is Boeing is ahead of the curve and put too much technology into the aircraft without fully understanding the complexity of it.
                          The other question here is: Is this technology really necessary? Given several planes have crashed because it, and more have suffered problems in flight, did it really make the plane safer as intended? My answer would be "No." I would say that it is probably an unnecessary technological addition to the plane, at least at this time, and the best fix would be to simply remove it from the plane entirely for the time being.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Rutger View Post
                            Yeah, well, why wait for a decent report if you can have a go at it anyway.
                            I wonder how much Boeing is gonna have to pay up for this, lawyers will be swarming over this.
                            Hi Rutger

                            Pray please define a 'decent' report.

                            Yep I agree that Boeing bank balance will take a hit from claims and also the slowed production of these aircraft.
                            Also it seems the FAA may have some serious Q's to answer in terms of its relationship with the major airline manufacturers

                            Regards

                            Andy H
                            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              The problem here is that Boeing, and the aircraft industry in general are adopting technology that is complex at a rate above that which it can be absorbed by the users.



                              What's happening is Boeing is ahead of the curve and put too much technology into the aircraft without fully understanding the complexity of it.
                              The other question here is: Is this technology really necessary? Given several planes have crashed because it, and more have suffered problems in flight, did it really make the plane safer as intended? My answer would be "No." I would say that it is probably an unnecessary technological addition to the plane, at least at this time, and the best fix would be to simply remove it from the plane entirely for the time being.
                              Hi Terry

                              I agree.

                              Regards

                              Andy H
                              "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                              "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Lately I have been watching Air Disasters, and the new trend is pilots who do not fully understand the complex computer-controlled automated responses to many situations. In a number of cases, the crash occurred because the pilots were fighting the effort of the computer system to recover control and prevent the crash, or to follow instructions inadvertently given by the pilots themsleves.

                                In one notable instance, the pilot landing the aircraft accidentally triggered the Go Around switch, with instructed the aircraft to abort landing and automatically circle around for another attempt. The pilots, not comprehending what had happened, fought desperately to force the plane to land, without cancelling the automated process, and ended up killing everyone.

                                Pilots are rapidly becoming mere passengers in the cockpits, unable to respond fast enough to cope with critical situations. nor to even keep up with the computerized systems. Meanwhile, each accident adds another layer of computerized "safety measures" to an already overwhelmingly complex flight envelope.
                                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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