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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post



    I never said trump was like reagan. I was comparing the reaction to their walking away from bad agreements

    We have been told endlessly by those who hate trump and the media (but I repeat myself) that trump would get outsmarted by Kim.
    Nothing of the sort has happened and yet the media and those who hate trump are still saying that he did something awful.
    If he actually did something awful I have to wonder what it is.

    Your earlier post made it clear you were linking the failure of the summit to trump's lack of preparation. As a result, I concluded you were finding more fault with trump than with kim. If I misread your post, I regret my error.

    The best case scenario would be an agreement that could be enforced. The next best result is trump abruptly ending the summit due to more game playing by the Norks. I believe this sends a message. This nonagreement is far better than anything BO accomplished with our enemies.
    Trump was 'outsmarted' by Kim when Trump agreed to two summits. He gave prestige to Kim by those actions and his 'glowing' remarks in Kim's letters, which were rather sick to my mind, were stupid at best.

    And it isn't hate for Trump-it's disgust at his actions, repeated lies, and the continued defense of Trump by Republicans no matter what he does.
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Massena View Post

      Trump was 'outsmarted' by Kim when Trump agreed to two summits. He gave prestige to Kim by those actions and his 'glowing' remarks in Kim's letters, which were rather sick to my mind, were stupid at best.

      And it isn't hate for Trump-it's disgust at his actions, repeated lies, and the continued defense of Trump by Republicans no matter what he does.


      I think that you raise a fair point that Trump gave Kim some prestige.
      While I disagree that Kim came out of this with added prestige, I think it is a reasonable point.


      One of the reasons that I am willing to accept trump, flaws and all, is the fact that I have seen what the alternative is.

      I live in a wholly owned subsidiary of the democratic party, otherwise known as Illinois.
      Trump has many flaws, but he is also doing things I support.
      Nevertheless, regardless of the flaws, I am certain that he is better than the alternative. Come to Illinois and see.
      At least before it closes due to bankruptcy or everyone moving away.
      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Massena View Post

        Trump was 'outsmarted' by Kim when Trump agreed to two summits. He gave prestige to Kim by those actions and his 'glowing' remarks in Kim's letters, which were rather sick to my mind, were stupid at best.
        Trump wasn't "outsmarted" by Kim by any stretch of the imagination. Back in April 2017 the left & MSM was claiming that Trump was going to start a war with North Korea with his tweets. Remember back in November 2017 when the left tried pushing Kim's agenda on Trump:

        The presence of three US aircraft carriers off the Korean Peninsula is pushing the region closer to nuclear war, according to a North Korean letter to the UN secretary-general.

        The three carriers, the USS Ronald Reagan, Theodore Roosevelt and Nimitz, and their multiship strike groups are finishing up four days of exercises Tuesday in the waters between South Korea and Japan.

        It is the first time three of the 100,000-ton behemoths have sailed together in the Western Pacific in a decade. South Korean and Japanese warships have joined them during the exercise.


        https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/12/polit...fic/index.html

        Trump didn't back down and a few months later the first summit was held in Singapore.

        Kim didn't want to make a deal regarding the nuclear weapons so Trump walked out. While the left will claim that Trump gave Kim prestige in some alternate reality.....he didn't. Kim goes back home with sanctions still on because he wasn't willing to negotiate. Kim took a gamble that Trump would crumble like every other US Administration has done...Trump didn't.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post



          I think that you raise a fair point that Trump gave Kim some prestige.
          While I disagree that Kim came out of this with added prestige, I think it is a reasonable point.


          One of the reasons that I am willing to accept trump, flaws and all, is the fact that I have seen what the alternative is.

          I live in a wholly owned subsidiary of the democratic party, otherwise known as Illinois.
          Trump has many flaws, but he is also doing things I support.
          Nevertheless, regardless of the flaws, I am certain that he is better than the alternative. Come to Illinois and see.
          At least before it closes due to bankruptcy or everyone moving away.
          that is something I can agree with.
          Donald Trump deserves high fives for his insight that Kim the fat wants to be seen as a statesman for posterity who is above Kim the Scamp and Kim the Gramps, his predecessors. Kim the Fat also responds to a lot of attention and "hand holding.", while he responds badly to any technical, for want of a better word, approaches.

          Grampa Kim Il sung was borderline psycho when it came to getting his way. Josef Stalin was opposed to starting the Korean war- Kim elder pulled out all stops, accusing Mao Tse \Tung of betraying the Koreans he sent to aid the takeover of China in 1948-49- until he got an "ok. ok. you can have your war...."

          we know how that turned out.....
          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Nichols View Post

            Trump wasn't "outsmarted" by Kim by any stretch of the imagination. Back in April 2017 the left & MSM was claiming that Trump was going to start a war with North Korea with his tweets. Remember back in November 2017 when the left tried pushing Kim's agenda on Trump:

            The presence of three US aircraft carriers off the Korean Peninsula is pushing the region closer to nuclear war, according to a North Korean letter to the UN secretary-general.

            The three carriers, the USS Ronald Reagan, Theodore Roosevelt and Nimitz, and their multiship strike groups are finishing up four days of exercises Tuesday in the waters between South Korea and Japan.

            It is the first time three of the 100,000-ton behemoths have sailed together in the Western Pacific in a decade. South Korean and Japanese warships have joined them during the exercise.


            https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/12/polit...fic/index.html

            Trump didn't back down and a few months later the first summit was held in Singapore.

            Kim didn't want to make a deal regarding the nuclear weapons so Trump walked out. While the left will claim that Trump gave Kim prestige in some alternate reality.....he didn't. Kim goes back home with sanctions still on because he wasn't willing to negotiate. Kim took a gamble that Trump would crumble like every other US Administration has done...Trump didn't.
            So is he restoring military exercises on the Korean peninsular which he crumbled way first time round?
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MarkV View Post

              So is he restoring military exercises on the Korean peninsular which he crumbled way first time round?
              No, not to my knowledge, IMO, it would be a sign of weakness if he did.

              What does that have to do with the present situation?

              Those exercises have been cancelled before by multiple Administrations. Trump used his cancelation of the exercises as I'm guessing a show of good faith from the Singapore summit. I don't see how they would be a negotiation tool for the Vietnam summit unless Trump wants to go back to the past Administrations attempts at diplomacy.

              Trump is looking for a deal, ditch the nuclear weapons and sanctions will be lifted. That's pretty straight forward, the exercises are no longer part of negotiations.....he has Kim in a tight spot.

              Think about it from the North Korean's perspective.....

              Kim can go back and say that the exercises are still cancelled.....but the sanctions are still in place. No different than it was after Singapore.

              Comment


              • #22
                “Prestige” is the new favorite word of the fake news. Trump is keeping the US and the world safe with his N. Korea policy. They are still not setting off nukes, and their attitude is much more complacent that it was in the past.
                The idiots will say this summit was a failure, because they get their opinions from anti-Trump pundits. But we’re still safe and this is part of the negotiating process.
                "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by American87 View Post
                  “Prestige” is the new favorite word of the fake news. Trump is keeping the US and the world safe with his N. Korea policy. They are still not setting off nukes, and their attitude is much more complacent that it was in the past.
                  The idiots will say this summit was a failure, because they get their opinions from anti-Trump pundits. But we’re still safe and this is part of the negotiating process.
                  If you don't believe that the highly-touted 'summit' is a failure, then please explain how it is, by any measure, a success?
                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Massena View Post

                    If you don't believe that the highly-touted 'summit' is a failure, then please explain how it is, by any measure, a success?
                    It's obvious you have no clue how international diplomacy work. I suggest you stick to your area of expertise, elementary school topics.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Massena View Post

                      If you don't believe that the highly-touted 'summit' is a failure, then please explain how it is, by any measure, a success?
                      Because Kim met with Trump.
                      "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

                      "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Massena View Post

                        If you don't believe that the highly-touted 'summit' is a failure, then please explain how it is, by any measure, a success?
                        As long as North Korea isn't doing nuclear test and launching missiles, this effort by Trump isn't a failure.

                        Then again maybe they will do some testing in the upcoming days....if they do, yes, you would be correct, the summit would be a failure.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nikki View Post

                          It's obvious you have no clue how international diplomacy work. I suggest you stick to your area of expertise, elementary school topics.
                          Please, tell us all you know about the topic in ten seconds? Or, is that too long?
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post



                            I think that you raise a fair point that Trump gave Kim some prestige.
                            While I disagree that Kim came out of this with added prestige, I think it is a reasonable point.
                            What Mr. Kiley classically fails to understand is we want Kim to come out of this with increased prestige. After all what good would it do if we got an agreement only for Kim to be overthrown and the agreement voided by some hard line military type.

                            We have been in Korea for nearly seventy years (more including advisors). North Korea is not going away anytime soon. South Korea does not want to take over a collapsed DPRK as it would be disastrous for their own economy. We have traditionally wanted China to intervene on our behalf, which China sorta-kinda, but not quite "assists," but at the cost of quid pro quos that weaken our position vis a vis China's increased bellicosity in the region. Given our over stretched military requirements, being effectively rid of the Korean problem is just a plus for our side. The South Koreans would love to have us gone if the threat was removed (after seven decades of a foreign presence who would not). So things are going in the direction of a win win for the U.S. let alone its allies. It is long time to put this dog to rest.

                            Tuebor

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by American87 View Post

                              Because Kim met with Trump.
                              That only benefits Kim.
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tuebor View Post

                                What Mr. Kiley classically fails to understand is we want Kim to come out of this with increased prestige. After all what good would it do if we got an agreement only for Kim to be overthrown and the agreement voided by some hard line military type.

                                We have been in Korea for nearly seventy years (more including advisors). North Korea is not going away anytime soon. South Korea does not want to take over a collapsed DPRK as it would be disastrous for their own economy. We have traditionally wanted China to intervene on our behalf, which China sorta-kinda, but not quite "assists," but at the cost of quid pro quos that weaken our position vis a vis China's increased bellicosity in the region. Given our over stretched military requirements, being effectively rid of the Korean problem is just a plus for our side. The South Koreans would love to have us gone if the threat was removed (after seven decades of a foreign presence who would not). So things are going in the direction of a win win for the U.S. let alone its allies. It is long time to put this dog to rest.

                                Tuebor
                                That is one of the most naïve 'presentations' I have read on this forum. And why, pray tell, does the US wish to have Kim with added prestige? That is just plain stupid.
                                We are not now that strength which in old days
                                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                                Comment

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