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After a four day conference The Pope is still clueless

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  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

    You’re point is taken, and this is a self inflicted wound only the church can repair. I believe that church law is what got us into this situation.
    I agree.
    The former Minister for Justice in Ireland said of Canon Law, when all the revelations of clerical sexal abuse of children really broke here; "Canon Law has as much weight under Irish Law as the rules of a golf club".
    A Priest or Bishop citing Canon Law as an appropriate mechanism to deal with child rape is guilty of sedition in that ihe is attempting to give primacy to the laws of a foreign power over the laws of the country which he is in. Canon Law should never ender into the discussion.
    If you were a member of a golf club and you became aware that another member was a child rapist would you go to the chairperson of the club, and them alone, and ask them to deal with in a way they saw fit or would you call the police?
    If a priest of member of a religious order does anything other than call the police, without seeking permission from their boss, then in my opinion they are facilitators of that child rape. Who the hell do these people think they are citing their own medieval rules when it comes to criminal matters?

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  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by ChrisF1987 View Post
    Let me start off by saying that I am a confirmed Catholic. Over the years I have become increasingly detached from the Catholic Church to the point where I no longer consider myself to be very religious at all. I believe in faith per se, but I detest organized religion especially the Catholic Church. And the protection of pedophile priests was the biggest factor that led me to walk away. The church has basically become an organized crime ring. They sit on all this money, own all this land, and they don't pay a single cent in taxes yet meddle in politics on a regular basis (see Cardinal Timothy Dolan and Archbishop Roberto Gonzalez Nieves).

    The best course of action for Pope Francis would be the cooperate with prosecutors and law enforcement. Church law isn't going to stop these horrific crimes. Fact is, the Catholic Church is in deep doo-doo ... go to a parish mass on Sunday morning and you will struggle to find anyone under 60 with the exception of the altar boys and those looking to make their required quota for education classes as part of Confirmation. They need to change and they need to change FAST.
    You’re point is taken, and this is a self inflicted wound only the church can repair. I believe that church law is what got us into this situation.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChrisF1987
    replied
    Let me start off by saying that I am a confirmed Catholic. Over the years I have become increasingly detached from the Catholic Church to the point where I no longer consider myself to be very religious at all. I believe in faith per se, but I detest organized religion especially the Catholic Church. And the protection of pedophile priests was the biggest factor that led me to walk away. The church has basically become an organized crime ring. They sit on all this money, own all this land, and they don't pay a single cent in taxes yet meddle in politics on a regular basis (see Cardinal Timothy Dolan and Archbishop Roberto Gonzalez Nieves).

    The best course of action for Pope Francis would be the cooperate with prosecutors and law enforcement. Church law isn't going to stop these horrific crimes. Fact is, the Catholic Church is in deep doo-doo ... go to a parish mass on Sunday morning and you will struggle to find anyone under 60 with the exception of the altar boys and those looking to make their required quota for education classes as part of Confirmation. They need to change and they need to change FAST.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Maybe the Pope needs to spend some time in seclusion reading the Bible.

    Leave a comment:


  • slick_miester
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

    The Catholic Church needs to open all its current and historical records to the authorities in all relevant countries. They need to invite independent investigators into the Vatican and give them every shred of evidence they have ever received on clerical or any other sexual abuse. They also need to stop with the pious expressions of regret and sorrow and show some anger and rage at what they have done. They need to condemn and criticise their own.
    They need to acknowledge that they have betrayed the message of Christ and the good people who have spent their lives within the Church trying to live by that Christian message.
    They need to do these things or they will be gone from the face of the Earth within a few generations and the world will be a poorer place for it because at their best they are a force for good and a voice for the voiceless. At their worst they have been evil incarnate. There can be no equivocation; they have to choose one side or the other.
    - emphasis mine

    I agree with everything you've said there, but I do believe that the highlighted portion requires some serious expansion.

    Mere expressions of rage and condemnations of Roman Catholic clerics sound fine and dandy, but sacrificing a few flunky priests or a couple of over-the-hill bishops isn't enough. In fact, that can prove wholly counterproductive. The POLICY of shielding clerical sexual predators came from Rome, from the curia -- the Vatican bureaucracy, and must have been endorsed by at least one Pontiff, and probably more than just one. That issue needs to be fully explored and fleshed out before the Roman Catholic Church can ever be considered "reformed."

    The other item that needs to be more fully examined isn't Roman Catholic per se, but one closer to home: how and why the civil authorities regularly deferred to their local Roman Catholic dioceses when the issue of clerical sex offenders was raised. From where I sit, there's a sh*tload of high-ranking police officials and prosecutors who willingly turned a blind eye to sexual abuse among the clergy. They're as good as co-conspirators. They need to answer for their actions, as well. Making scapegoats of a handful of old priests will allow thousands of ranking clerics and law enforcement officials to simply get away with it, and that should not be tolerated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nichols
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

    The Catholic Church needs to......….There can be no equivocation; they have to choose one side or the other.
    I agree with everything that you posted.

    Leave a comment:


  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post
    The Catholic Church needs a reset like it had in 1517.
    The Catholic Church needs to open all its current and historical records to the authorities in all relevant countries. They need to invite independent investigators into the Vatican and give them every shred of evidence they have ever received on clerical or any other sexual abuse. They also need to stop with the pious expressions of regret and sorrow and show some anger and rage at what they have done. They need to condemn and criticise their own.
    They need to acknowledge that they have betrayed the message of Christ and the good people who have spent their lives within the Church trying to live by that Christian message.
    They need to do these things or they will be gone from the face of the Earth within a few generations and the world will be a poorer place for it because at their best they are a force for good and a voice for the voiceless. At their worst they have been evil incarnate. There can be no equivocation; they have to choose one side or the other.

    Leave a comment:


  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

    Not to pick a fight here, but we just had a Catholic priest arrested, indicted, tried and convicted in public, with full disclosure of the accused name and the charges. So to say that all cases are prosecuted the same ways is an overstatement.

    https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...223358745.html
    I was saying that it is the norm here, not everywhere. It applies to all sexual assault cases here. In the UK things are different; the accused is usually named before the verdict. In Ireland the accused is only named if there is a guilty verdict.
    The presumption of innocence means that people are entitled to their good name unless found guilty.

    Leave a comment:


  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post
    The Catholic Church needs a reset like it had in 1517.
    Except that it wasn't a reset but a split which ended with more than a century of religious wars that killed a significant proportion of the European population and left residual hatreds that we still have to deal with today

    Leave a comment:


  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

    It is the norm here as well. The identity of the accused is also protected until if and they are found guilty. That way their reputation remains intact if they are found not guilty as the stigma attached to even being accused of a sex crime never really goes away.
    Not to pick a fight here, but we just had a Catholic priest arrested, indicted, tried and convicted in public, with full disclosure of the accused name and the charges. So to say that all cases are prosecuted the same ways is an overstatement.

    https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...223358745.html

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

    Absolutely true, but now we are learning that sexual abuse of nuns has been going on for years and has been swept under the rug as well.
    Charming. "The house of God", indeed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nichols
    replied
    The Catholic Church needs a reset like it had in 1517.

    Leave a comment:


  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

    I believe this is more common in Australia, Canada and Great Britain, in the US trials are public, the victims identity can be protected.
    It is the norm here as well. The identity of the accused is also protected until if and they are found guilty. That way their reputation remains intact if they are found not guilty as the stigma attached to even being accused of a sex crime never really goes away.

    Leave a comment:


  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

    Sexual crimes are usually carried out with a ban on media coverage in order to protect the alleged victim and the accused, if found innocent. This is especially the case when children are involved.
    I believe this is more common in Australia, Canada and Great Britain, in the US trials are public, the victims identity can be protected.

    Leave a comment:


  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
    Interestingly the Australian Cardinal was tried in secrecy,

    Rather hard to be transparent when trials are carried out in secrecy.
    Sexual crimes are usually carried out with a ban on media coverage in order to protect the alleged victim and the accused, if found innocent. This is especially the case when children are involved.

    Leave a comment:

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