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  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    Didn't say that. Said: The Bible makes it clear, as does history, that the Egyptians enslaved large numbers of peoples.

    And yes, the Catholic Church, which raped the New World, powered the Crusades and ran the Spanish Inquisition is, in fact, as powerful as people think. It is still the only religion in the world with it's own state, it's own passports and stamps, and it's own bank and spy service.
    The Catholic Church did none of those things the Spanish Monarchy did.

    If the Catholic Church was so powerful how did Catholic France get away with siding with the protestants in the 30 years war against the Holy Roman Empire? How did Henry the Eighth get away with just flipping the church off and starting his own church? If you really want to see how powerful Rome was look at the chaos in Italy and the bears between the city states in the early middle ages. I could think of a hundred other examples but you get the idea.

    I already told you to forget the inquisition because the protestants were worse. Look it up the figures have been tabulated and the truth is there for anyone who wants to know to know.

    The real Tyranny of the Catholic Church was intellectual. Since the only "educated" people in the early middle ages were associated with the church it had a great deal of influence over education. The uneducated rulers more or less ignored Rome. Once the printing press was invented so did much of the rest of Europe.

    The biggest propaganda success of the Catholic Church is how many non Catholics are convinced of it's relevance as a political power.

    Leave a comment:


  • JustAGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    Didn't say that. Said: The Bible makes it clear, as does history, that the Egyptians enslaved large numbers of peoples.

    And yes, the Catholic Church, which raped the New World, powered the Crusades and ran the Spanish Inquisition is, in fact, as powerful as people think. It is still the only religion in the world with it's own state, it's own passports and stamps, and it's own bank and spy service.
    So you believe the Egyptians enslaved the Jews like it says in the old testament?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    Yes the archeologists have shown that the bible is mistaken about slaves building the pyramids.

    And no the Catholic Church was never as powerful as people think. Until recently that view was widely held. Due to some very effective protestant propaganda a distorted picture was built up. But recent research shows that protestant churches were little better including the fact that protestants burned more people at the stake than Catholics, those were not Catholics in Salem. I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but it's tyranny was more mental than physical.

    The pharaohs were tyrants but they were also a nexus of religious symbology.

    The great cathedrals taking three hundred years to construct proves that the spiritual connection between generations was more stable than their politics.
    Didn't say that. Said: The Bible makes it clear, as does history, that the Egyptians enslaved large numbers of peoples.

    And yes, the Catholic Church, which raped the New World, powered the Crusades and ran the Spanish Inquisition is, in fact, as powerful as people think. It is still the only religion in the world with it's own state, it's own passports and stamps, and it's own bank and spy service.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Yes the archeologists have shown that the bible is mistaken about slaves building the pyramids.

    And no the Catholic Church was never as powerful as people think. Until recently that view was widely held. Due to some very effective protestant propaganda a distorted picture was built up. But recent research shows that protestant churches were little better including the fact that protestants burned more people at the stake than Catholics, those were not Catholics in Salem. I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but it's tyranny was more mental than physical.

    The pharaohs were tyrants but they were also a nexus of religious symbology.

    The great cathedrals taking three hundred years to construct proves that the spiritual connection between generations was more stable than their politics.
    Last edited by wolfhnd; 12 Nov 18, 17:20.

    Leave a comment:


  • JustAGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The great cathedrals of Europe took up to three centuries to complete, and were built on behalf of the Church, arguably one of the greatest tyrannies of all time.
    Indeed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

    That is a view of history that has gone out of favor. Both the pyramids in Egypt and the Great Cathedrals of Europe were not build by slaves but what by today's standards would be called religious zealots. Did corrupt leaders take advantage of religious sentiment? of course but the leaders were only the civilization in their own minds and in the minds of the people. The symbology was the glue not the whip.
    Nevertheless, "the most powerful nation Earth" can't do it today, in the 21st century.

    As for the pharaohs not being despots - "So I have said it; so shall it be written, and as it is written, so let it be done." God kings do not make requests nor do they seek consensus.

    No slaves in Egypt? Then the Bible lied about "freeing the Israelites from bondage"? Egypt had plenty of slaves, and they weren't fed for nothing.

    The great cathedrals of Europe took up to three centuries to complete, and were built on behalf of the Church, arguably one of the greatest tyrannies of all time.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    It's more like the rulers of nations back then could accumulate a greater percentage of the wealth and use it as they saw fit without oversight. So, a pharaoh, or king could simply order construction of some grand monument to themselves or whatever and spend to build it regardless of how it might otherwise be hurting the economy. The workers building these monuments or whatever, were often very skilled craftsmen like stone masons, sculptors, and artisans.
    The big difference today in costing out something like these edifices to despots is that in countries where there isn't a dictatorship things like safety, environmentalism, and engineering have gone beyond the point of economic return into the realm of zero tolerance where they simply cannot be afforded anymore. Look at the repairs to the Oakland Bay Bridge for example. To fix portions damaged in an earthquake it took more than a decade, and cost more than one hundred times what the whole bridge cost to build initially. That's insane. Even then, there were still problems with the final product, so for all that extra cost the final product wasn't much better than the original built without all the safety, environmental, and other laws, rules, and regulations forced on the repair crew.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter...and_Bay_Bridge

    https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/...verrun/410254/
    Of course but I'm trying to get at more than just the practical explanations. A civilization is more than just stones stacked together, there is a "spiritual" element that we shouldn't ignore.

    Most of civilization is cooperation only so much of it can be by force. Even tyrants like Alexander the Great have to be a leaders and maintain morale. What his empire didn't have was a "soul" and quickly collapsed after his death.

    Near my home town there is a massive stone cathedral built entirely by volunteer labor and donated material, the monks supplied the beer that lubricated the process. Not only were the pyramids not built by slave labor but they probably couldn't have been any more than that cathedral could have been built by tithes.

    The USSR only survived for a short while after Stalin died because like Alexander's empire it had no "soul". Rome went on generation after generation because it believed in itself when it stopped believing in itself it collapsed. The tyrants as it were did more harm than good to the long term success.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post

    Whatever diddums, you are the guy who said that the GDP PER CAPITA of Cali and Arizona was $14.48 and $23.54 (it's actually $58,619 and $38,590 respectively).

    To put this into context the lowest present GDP per capita recorded on Wikipedia the now is Central African Republic; $700.00

    I don't really need to say anything else do I? That kinda speaks for itself.,,,,,,
    Since you have only ever posted here to mock and antagonize your political foes, you should be used to being ignored. However, since you leave no link for your statement, I'll have to point out that TAG's figures are hourly wage benchmarks, not yearly averages.
    Do you know the difference?

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

    That is a view of history that has gone out of favor. Both the pyramids in Egypt and the Great Cathedrals of Europe were not build by slaves but what by today's standards would be called religious zealots. Did corrupt leaders take advantage of religious sentiment? of course but the leaders were only the civilization in their own minds and in the minds of the people. The symbology was the glue not the whip.
    It's more like the rulers of nations back then could accumulate a greater percentage of the wealth and use it as they saw fit without oversight. So, a pharaoh, or king could simply order construction of some grand monument to themselves or whatever and spend to build it regardless of how it might otherwise be hurting the economy. The workers building these monuments or whatever, were often very skilled craftsmen like stone masons, sculptors, and artisans.
    The big difference today in costing out something like these edifices to despots is that in countries where there isn't a dictatorship things like safety, environmentalism, and engineering have gone beyond the point of economic return into the realm of zero tolerance where they simply cannot be afforded anymore. Look at the repairs to the Oakland Bay Bridge for example. To fix portions damaged in an earthquake it took more than a decade, and cost more than one hundred times what the whole bridge cost to build initially. That's insane. Even then, there were still problems with the final product, so for all that extra cost the final product wasn't much better than the original built without all the safety, environmental, and other laws, rules, and regulations forced on the repair crew.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter...and_Bay_Bridge

    https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/...verrun/410254/

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    People don't - rulers do. The greater the architecture, the more dictatorial the ruler. Nothing else can mobilize the entire resources of ancient civilizations necessary to build massive structures as was done in the past. We could never build a pyramid today - it would be hugely costly, lots of union problems ,vastly over budget and and would be decades behind schedule...if it even got approved by the zillion-and-one government bureaucracies like the EPA and constant feuding in Washington, DC. We can't even fix our current roads and bridges, let alone approach what the ancient civilizations did.
    That is a view of history that has gone out of favor. Both the pyramids in Egypt and the Great Cathedrals of Europe were not build by slaves but what by today's standards would be called religious zealots. Did corrupt leaders take advantage of religious sentiment? of course but the leaders were only the civilization in their own minds and in the minds of the people. The symbology was the glue not the whip.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

    I'm advocating for a deeper understanding of the myth.

    When I was in my 30s I tried to write a book like Jordan Peterson's "Maps of Meaning" but I didn't have the intellect to complete it. The question has always been where do people find the meaning necessary to make civilization possible, in building a pyramid, a cathedral, a highway system, water systems, anything that connects them to the past and the future?
    People don't - rulers do. The greater the architecture, the more dictatorial the ruler. Nothing else can mobilize the entire resources of ancient civilizations necessary to build massive structures as was done in the past. We could never build a pyramid today - it would be hugely costly, lots of union problems ,vastly over budget and and would be decades behind schedule...if it even got approved by the zillion-and-one government bureaucracies like the EPA and constant feuding in Washington, DC. We can't even fix our current roads and bridges, let alone approach what the ancient civilizations did.

    Leave a comment:


  • Half Pint John
    replied
    Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post

    Whatever diddums, you are the guy who said that the GDP PER CAPITA of Cali and Arizona was $14.48 and $23.54 (it's actually $58,619 and $38,590 respectively).

    To put this into context the lowest present GDP recorded on Wikipedia the now is Central African Republic; $700.00

    I don't really need to say anything else do I? That kinda speaks for itself.,,,,,,

    Leave a comment:


  • Paddybhoy
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    How about you get the concept that I don't care what YOU, and just you, have to say. It's extremely rare that I ignore anyone for almost any reason, but in your case, I'll make an exception.
    Whatever diddums, you are the guy who said that the GDP PER CAPITA of Cali and Arizona was $14.48 and $23.54 (it's actually $58,619 and $38,590 respectively).

    To put this into context the lowest present GDP per capita recorded on Wikipedia the now is Central African Republic; $700.00

    I don't really need to say anything else do I? That kinda speaks for itself.,,,,,,
    Last edited by Paddybhoy; 12 Nov 18, 09:38.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    Because the Left can't tolerate anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest. They go out of their way, like Jim Acosta did, to pick a fight, insult, or otherwise denigrate anyone or thing that dissents.
    In a way I understand where they are coming from. The experiment with "socialism" is starting to show cracks and the tendency of people to attack the messenger and not the message is understandable. I tend to agree that you can't go back to when a more libertarian approach may have been possible. Even those opposed to ever increasing government control seem to have no idea how to get to a less dystopian situation without the whole house of cards coming tumbling down. It kind of explains some of the insanity like Merkel suggesting that immigrants with employment rates below 5 percent were going to pay for the retirement of an aging population. The irony is that the people the leftists hate are probably the only people that could manage the situation we find ourselves in.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

    It has become the case that people no longer want discussion but to demonize the people they disagree with. I don't even mind name calling or "hate speech" but they don't have to be so ungodly boorish. If they think you have nothing interesting to say why respond?
    Because the Left can't tolerate anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest. They go out of their way, like Jim Acosta did, to pick a fight, insult, or otherwise denigrate anyone or thing that dissents.

    Leave a comment:

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