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It's Time to End Affirmative Action

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  • #31
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    Affirmative action has become the issue that needs fixing.
    Agreed and the way to fix it is by getting rid of it. The way of getting rid of it is by addressing America's massive issue of racism.
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

      Agreed and the way to fix it is by getting rid of it. The way of getting rid of it is by addressing America's massive issue of racism.
      Affirmative action causes racism. Multiculturalism, as taught and celebrated by Progressives, causes racism. It is the politics of pointing out gender and race and making a big deal out of both that causes the problem. If nobody cared about race, and nobody made a big deal out of race, racism would shrivel up and blow away on the wind.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

        Affirmative action causes racism. Multiculturalism, as taught and celebrated by Progressives, causes racism. It is the politics of pointing out gender and race and making a big deal out of both that causes the problem. If nobody cared about race, and nobody made a big deal out of race, racism would shrivel up and blow away on the wind.
        Nah, it's the history of your country that drives most of the low-key racism. I do agree that affirmative action is starting to have a negative effect; for the simple reason that those who are not benefiting from it think they are getting a bad deal, and obviously the whole think has to do with race.
        Wisdom is personal

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post

          It is. But, he attacked me, so I retaliated. His idiocy was on display with his accusations against me and his completely uninformed conjecture about the situation. Not surprising, really, coming from him. But I'm done with it at that point, and am moving on. If HPJ gets his panties in a bunch over it, then so much the better.

          The fact is, I lost a promotion to someone else because of Affirmative Action. That cannot be denied. It was years ago, so I'm no longer holding grudges, just posting an example of the problem.
          Affirmative action has always been, in my mind, a substitute for fully qualified people.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Karri View Post

            Nah, it's the history of your country that drives most of the low-key racism. I do agree that affirmative action is starting to have a negative effect; for the simple reason that those who are not benefiting from it think they are getting a bad deal, and obviously the whole think has to do with race.
            Could you expand on that please, Karri?
            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Could you expand on that please, Karri?
              The first point I assume? It's no secret that after slavery was abolished the black population was still, at best, second class citizens until 1960s. It's only lately that they have been presented with the same status, opportunities and rights as the main population. This has lead to, among other things, ghettos which are a feedback loop. By no means unique to USA, but in USA quite uniquely centred around people of colour.

              Racism in my country is quite direct and mostly distrust of anyone different. But in your country a part of the population has lived as a separate entity for hundreds of years which has left a deep wound in your society.
              Wisdom is personal

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Karri View Post

                The first point I assume? It's no secret that after slavery was abolished the black population was still, at best, second class citizens until 1960s. It's only lately that they have been presented with the same status, opportunities and rights as the main population. This has lead to, among other things, ghettos which are a feedback loop. By no means unique to USA, but in USA quite uniquely centred around people of colour.

                Racism in my country is quite direct and mostly distrust of anyone different. But in your country a part of the population has lived as a separate entity for hundreds of years which has left a deep wound in your society.
                Your "racism" isn't racism, then; it's xenophobia, which is most often based on artificial feelings of superiority.

                This is going to come as a surprise to you, but blacks tend to segregate themselves. Give them a chance to mix equally and they will end up with others like themselves, while blaming the whites for everything.

                Blacks are extremely racist, more so often than any other group in America.

                Another thing worth noting is that after the Civil War, a very mixed population was involved in the Great Expansion to the West. Slavery/racism was an Eastern and Southern phenomenon, not a Western one.
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                  Affirmative action causes racism. Multiculturalism, as taught and celebrated by Progressives, causes racism. It is the politics of pointing out gender and race and making a big deal out of both that causes the problem. If nobody cared about race, and nobody made a big deal out of race, racism would shrivel up and blow away on the wind.
                  AA doesn't cause anyone to believe that people of other races are inferior to them, those thoughts have to already be present. Multiculturalism causes increased racism because conservatives will fight back, aggressively, against anything that doesn't prioritize whites or anything that allows the country to be more diverse. Liberals have to bring up race, because large segments of the country still judge based on it. It's like having the flu and then blaming your doctor for discussing flu remedies.
                  "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                    AA doesn't cause anyone to believe that people of other races are inferior to them, those thoughts have to already be present. Multiculturalism causes increased racism because conservatives will fight back, aggressively, against anything that doesn't prioritize whites or anything that allows the country to be more diverse. Liberals have to bring up race, because large segments of the country still judge based on it. It's like having the flu and then blaming your doctor for discussing flu remedies.
                    Affirmative action in itself is an admission by its adherents that certain races are inferior and therefore require special consideration, advantage, and help in order to get ahead. In essence, they are saying "You are incapable of playing on the same field as we are so we'll give you a handicap to even things out."

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                      Affirmative action in itself is an admission by its adherents that certain races are inferior and therefore require special consideration, advantage, and help in order to get ahead. In essence, they are saying "You are incapable of playing on the same field as we are so we'll give you a handicap to even things out."
                      I don't think people who view races equally and understand America's history would interpret it so inaccurately. Affirmative action is an admittance that racism is so strong in this country that qualified black candidates won't be given a fair chance.
                      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                      - Benjamin Franklin

                      The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by pamak View Post
                        Notice that although we often see initiatives to challenge the universities' practices of admissions with respect to race, we never hear similar challenges to challenge practices of admissions with respect to the children of alumni who get preferential treatment.
                        Alumni get preferential treatment? When? Where? By whom?
                        My worst jump story:
                        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                        No lie.

                        ~
                        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                          Alumni get preferential treatment? When? Where? By whom?

                          By the same universities that are sued as a result of their affirmative action

                          Take for example Harvard

                          https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/u...n-harvard.html


                          Justice Dept. Backs Suit Accusing Harvard of Discriminating Against Asian-American Applicants



                          and


                          https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/29/u...?module=inline


                          Harvard says it also considers “tips,” or admissions advantages, for some applicants. The plaintiffs say the college gives tips to five groups: racial and ethnic minorities; legacies, or the children of Harvard or Radcliffe alumni; relatives of a Harvard donor; the children of staff or faculty members; and recruited athletes.


                          https://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/01/10/legacy_status/

                          Many universities–Stanford included–are usually tight-lipped about their legacy admissions statistics, though the University’s Committee on Undergraduate Admission and Financial Aid acknowledged this fall that Stanford may give preference to applicants whose parents graduated from here.


                          https://www.chronicle.com/article/Le...May-Be/125812/

                          A researcher at Harvard University recently examined the impact of legacy status at 30 highly selective colleges and concluded that, all other things being equal, legacy applicants got a 23.3-percentage-point increase in their probability of admission. If the applicants' connection was a parent who attended the college as an undergraduate, a "primary legacy," the increase was 45.1-percentage points.

                          How do you think mediocre students like Bush managed to get BA and a Masters Degree from elite universities?

                          220px-George-W-Bush.jpg

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush

                          It is interesting though that you were not aware of this. It shows how the criticism regarding admission practices has targeted specific demographic groups only...
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            snipped all the pama bull ****
                            So if you read some BS and it fits your agenda, therefore it must be true.

                            I have three higher education degrees, I have never been asked about family alumni or saw any questions regarding such on any applications
                            and have never heard this during interviews. I'm sure it happens, but not to the frequency you are mentioning.

                            GWB is still smarter than Obama and Obama is the product of affirmative action without a doubt.
                            My worst jump story:
                            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                            No lie.

                            ~
                            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              The same objective could be fulfilled by universities without reference to race by admitting poorly qualified people of all races who have because of poverty or other barriers been unable to fulfill their potential. I would use IQ as the primary metric for determining eligibility for special admittance after the candidate had met certain disadvantage criteria.

                              People on both sides of the argument need to admit that the current system is not "fair". No system can be made fair as a practical matter. The mechanisms of administration are full of bright lines that are essentially arbitrary. In this case race is an arbitrary definition, as perhaps best illustrated by Elizabeth Warren's use of minority identity to advance her career. In addition not only are all people of a given race not equally disadvantaged but determining what races are disadvantaged and to what degree is practically impossible. The same problem would exist if class was used instead of race but the necessarily arbitrary rules would spread the inherent discrimination more fairly.

                              Hierarchies of competence are not immoral. The goal is to provide an equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. The old system of providing scholarships to the disadvantaged did not dilute competency. We have a right to and an interests in the promotion of competency and to the degree that selection by race alone dilutes competency it is immoral. Tax supported institutions cannot operate under discriminatory rules. Charitably organization are free to create whatever scholarships they choose.

                              Racism cannot be measured by outcome but only by intent. While racism is undoubtedly still rampant, if largely silent, in society the principle of innocent until proven guilty still applies. The burden of proof lies with the accuser. Affirmative action is blatantly discriminatory. The poor academic performance of some minorities is also blatantly clear. The way to address discrimination is to raise performance so that claims of racism can be empirically demonstrated. Unless we abide by objective measures of competency we cannot be just even if those guilty of discrimination go unpunished. Freedom from authoritarian government is not free and the burden is and never has been fairly distributed nor can it be.

                              The first thing we need to address is the epidemic of single parenthood. It is the single largest factor in minority underperformance. Those in favor of affirmative action should consider how their attitudes and lifestyle encourages poor chooses by those least able to bear the burden of those lifestyles. This is the main conservative argument against Trump who like the elite in Hollywood has never had to bear the negative consequences of their lifestyles. Monogamous relationships are the firewall against male aggression and irresponsibility. The evidence is clear that what makes income inequality so dangerous is not poverty but sexual access. Male sexual energy if not funneled into a monogamous relationships will find anti social outlets.

                              We are all morally obligated to end racial discrimination but by any means necessary is immoral.





                              We hunt the hunters

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                This is going to come as a surprise to you, but blacks tend to segregate themselves. Give them a chance to mix equally and they will end up with others like themselves, while blaming the whites for everything.

                                Blacks are extremely racist, more so often than any other group in America.
                                Individual black people can be racist, or hold racialist views, or choose to live apart from white people, sure -- but African-Americans as an entity? With but a handful of exceptions, before 1970 blacks were excluded, either by law or by custom, from institutions of higher learning, from military commissions, from law enforcement positions, from political office, from membership in the bar, from residence in certain locales, from voting. There is no African-American analogue for Jim Crow, because blacks in the US prior to 1970 were almost completely denied access to the levers of power. Blacks could not get legislation passed. Blacks could not sit on appeals courts. The US Congress did not pass a single civil rights bill between 1877 and 1957 because no person or group of persons of stature -- black or white -- gave a rat's a$$ about black people, Consequently no Federal bill banning lynching could be enacted. What Justice Taney wrote in his Dred Scott opinion, that African-Americans are "so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect," remained, if not the law of the land, then at the very least its conventional wisdom, right up until the 1960s, ie roughly a full century after Emancipation.

                                https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/60/393

                                In other words, whatever black people felt was completely irrelevant, because they had not the power to turn their sentiments into political reality, and that reality only began to change about fifty or sixty years ago.

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Another thing worth noting is that after the Civil War, a very mixed population was involved in the Great Expansion to the West. Slavery/racism was an Eastern and Southern phenomenon, not a Western one.
                                Is Tulsa Oklahoma a Southern town, or a Western town? Oklahoma did not secede from the Union in 1860-61 along with the other Confederate states, so by my way of thinking it would be a little difficult to classify Tulsa as a Southern city. I only ask because their white residents one day decided to obliterate Tulsa's black community.

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

                                It would seem that every CONUS state save seven saw at least one black person lynched between 1882 and 1968. Colorado saw three.

                                http://www.famous-trials.com/sheriff...lynchingsstate
                                http://www.cpr.org/news/story/there-...be-much-higher
                                https://durangoherald.com/articles/233005
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...5%E2%80%931877
                                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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