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  • Originally posted by pamak View Post

    Come to the US and try to experience the system here before making comparisons and claims about which system has failed! Just premiums payed each month together with deductibles can easily exceed 10,000 annually for a family. And this is in scenarios where people get normal services! One root canal together with a crown is about 1500, and no dental is not part of the cheap healthcare insurances in the US. You need to have a separate insurance for dental Once I calculated that it was cheaper to fly to Greece , have the dental work as an uninsured person there paying in cash, and return back to the US than getting the dental work in the US (and WITH insurance).
    Besides the question

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pamak View Post

      I am talking about mandatory coverage like we already have in the US for medicare and medicaid! And yes, mandatory coverage is necessary! And the Obamacare provisions were challenged and survived the US courts which ruled them as constitutional. Not only it survived the courts, it survived a Congress controlled by the republicans. It is obvious that regardless of what Trump wants, Obamacare has the support of the majority of the population. And yes in democracies most often some people are forced to pay for things they do not want. I love how people like you always talk about "freedom" when they promote a notion of freedom to have a system in which more people are sick without insurance while everybody pays for a much more expensive system! This freedom makes as much sense as the freedom that a drunk person has to drive a car or the freedom that a child has to put his finger inside a hot cup of tea. In other words, it is meaningless and irrational because the choices are irrational.
      Hitler and Stalin could not say better : the government decides what is good for the people .
      If the majority of the population supported Obamacare, why is Trump potus and not Hillary ?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by American87 View Post

        The problem with pre-existing conditions is that, if insurance companies accepted them, everyone would avoid buying healthcare until they were ill. Then they would purchase an insurance plan to cover the "pre-existing" condition, and the insurance company would be paying for the treatment without any annual revenue to cover the costs.

        Obamacare sought to rectify this by forcing everyone to buy health care. That created an annual revenue that would allow companies to cover pre-existing conditions. The problem was healthy people were paying way more than they wanted to, and the legal precedent was established that the government can force you to buy things. Should the government force you to buy organic food because it's good for you, or flowers because they look and smell nice?

        If you have another way for covering the costs of pre-existing conditions, then I'm all ears.
        I get what you're saying, but healthcare extends to many other things outside a single pre-existing condition. I'd recommend people to figure out how other developed countries are paying for this. And we're somehow stuck with our broken system. Remember, republicans want to maximize profits for their corporate lobbyists. Usually at the expense of the middle class.

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        • Originally posted by inevtiab1e View Post

          I'd recommend people to figure out how other developed countries are paying for this.
          WHY ?

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          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
            WHY ?
            I have a partial answer as to how other developed countries pay for such care.
            Someone else is doing all the heavy lifting with respect to their defense needs.

            Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

            Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

              I have a partial answer as to how other developed countries pay for such care.
              Someone else is doing all the heavy lifting with respect to their defense needs.
              And where is the rest of the answer? With the proof and stuff? Who is doing the heavy lifting for Finland?
              Wisdom is personal

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

                Hitler and Stalin could not say better : the government decides what is good for the people .
                If the majority of the population supported Obamacare, why is Trump potus and not Hillary ?
                The question is stupid!

                1 The majority of the population DID vote for Hillary!
                2 One can support Trump and still disagree with him on certain things.

                Notice how the majority of the states expanded medicaid under the Obamacare law, and this includes states that voted for TRump!

                https://www.kff.org/health-reform/sl...sion-decision/



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                • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

                  I have a partial answer as to how other developed countries pay for such care.
                  Someone else is doing all the heavy lifting with respect to their defense needs.
                  You create burdens that nobody asked you to assume. If you decide to spend more on defense than China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France,United Kingdom, and Japan COMBINED , then it is time ti reassess the POLITICAL choices you made in the past. WE are no more in the Cold War!
                  https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0...nse-comparison

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                  • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                    You create burdens that nobody asked you to assume. If you decide to spend more on defense than China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France,United Kingdom, and Japan COMBINED , then it is time ti reassess the POLITICAL choices you made in the past. WE are no more in the Cold War!
                    https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0...nse-comparison

                    So you agree.

                    Oh and China and Russia remain threats.
                    The fact that the cold war is over, doesn't mean there are no more military threats.
                    Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                    Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Karri View Post

                      And where is the rest of the answer? With the proof and stuff? Who is doing the heavy lifting for Finland?
                      I cannot answer for Finland, but can answer for Western and Southern Europe and Japan and Korea.

                      The fact that my "partial" answer might not apply to finland doesn't disprove what I said.
                      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                      Comment


                      • A quick look at California's state budget illustrates why you should take these kind of statistics with a grain of salt. While governor Brown and the media is touting the 9 billion surplus they fail to mention the $40 billion in bonds and unfunded pension liabilities. If this reminds you of the problems in Greece you probably can see through the propaganda.

                        On the flip side the Republican federal tax plan and Trump's trade war seem designed to punish blue states.

                        The first victim of political wars is always the truth. While our media, tech firms, and governments seem increasingly inclined to limit free speech and push narratives it is exactly times such as these when fringe voices may be most important.

                        We hunt the hunters

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post


                          So you agree.

                          Oh and China and Russia remain threats.
                          The fact that the cold war is over, doesn't mean there are no more military threats.
                          I agree that having much higher military expenses makes it more difficult to find resources for any social program, including a European social healthcare But, again, this is also a political choice. The fact that the Russians and the Chinese are a threat does not mean that the US cannot substantially reduce its military budget when it outspends the next 7 countries' combined military budget. Moreover, for the case of Obamacare specifically (which is not a European style of social healthcare) it is clear that the US budget can afford it even with the current level of military spending! In fact, the repeal of Obamacare is estimated to increase the federal deficit according to the bipartisan CBO

                          https://www.cbo.gov/publication/50252

                          CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation estimate that, over the next decade, a repeal of the Affordable Care Act would probably increase budget deficits with or without considering the effects of macroeconomic feedback.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                            The question is stupid!

                            1 The majority of the population DID vote for Hillary!
                            2 One can support Trump and still disagree with him on certain things.

                            Notice how the majority of the states expanded medicaid under the Obamacare law, and this includes states that voted for TRump!

                            https://www.kff.org/health-reform/sl...sion-decision/


                            The majority of the population supported Trump, that Hillary had more popular votes is irrelevant .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

                              I have a partial answer as to how other developed countries pay for such care.
                              Someone else is doing all the heavy lifting with respect to their defense needs.
                              My 'why '' was directed at the assumption that we should look on how other countries payed for their healthcare : my answer is that we should NOT look how they are doing it ,because the question is a loaded one : look at how Finland is paying for its healthcare, and if Finland is able to do it, US and other countries must also do it .The truth is that what Finland can do is irrelevant for what the US should do : Finland is Finland and US are US and Belgium is Belgium ,etc ,and, to paraphrase Kipling : all three of them will never encounter each other .
                              To say that the US should adopt the social system /healthcare system of a European country,is the same as saying that the countries of the ME/Africa should adopt the political system (liberal capitalism ) of the US : the Liberals and neocons have tried this,the result was an abject failure .

                              Comment


                              • People who read marxist post 104, will notice that the author claimed,with the authority of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin redivivus,that mandatory coverage of healthcare is necessary, wisely avoiding to say why ( he could not admit that in his POV the state is almighty and the citizens must follow the orders of their superiors ).
                                Why should John Doe be obliged to join Medicare, Obamacare and other such things ? It is his life, his health.But, of course, the totalitarians, who disguised themselves as liberals, will never accept this ; if people have the choice, this would be the beginning of the end for the nanny state, also called big state,who is in reality nothing else than deep state .
                                The nanny,big,deep state is in last instance based on the conviction that the state is father who knows best and that the citizens are his children,who must obey his orders .
                                That's the essence of liberal democracy .

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