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J McCain's passing & the veneration if not near deification of war heroes since VN

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

    How long since we came back from NAM? How ever your point is correct. Within the US the child that saves and ice cream cone on a hot summers day well be called a hero from some. Many want to call all of us Nam Vets, HERO but most of use weren't and don't want the term applied because we have known real heroes
    The names of my Heroes can be found at #5 Bacon Drive Washington, DC!
    Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Trung Si View Post

      The names of my Heroes can be found at #5 Bacon Drive Washington, DC!
      My family has two names on that wall-my brother and my cousin.
      Last edited by Massena; 02 Sep 18, 12:13.
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

        For me, bravery is often confused with heroism. Heroism is extreme bravery; I label people as heroes that knowing risked their lives to save another. We can identify heroes in the military or as civilians. Firefighters in the Twin Towers risked their lives to save others knowing that any second those buildings would be coming down. McCain was a brave man but not a hero in my book.
        From Webster's Dictionary:

        Bravery: The quality or state of having or showing mental or moral strength to face danger, fear, or difficulty.

        Hero: One who shows great courage; a person admired for achievements and noble qualities.
        Heroism: Heroic conduct especially as exhibited in fulfilling a high purpose or attaining a noble end.

        Courage: Mental or moral strength to venture, perservere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty.

        Seems to me that John McCain achieved the definitions listed above.
        We are not now that strength which in old days
        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

        Comment


        • #34
          This past week's slobbering all over the memory of McCain by the Democrat establishment and members of the media had nothing to do with honoring his service in Vietnam. Or anywhere else, for that matter. It has been about using McCain's death as a means to slight and/or outright attack the President.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Martok View Post
            This past week's slobbering all over the memory of McCain by the Democrat establishment and members of the media had nothing to do with honoring his service in Vietnam. Or anywhere else, for that matter. It has been about using McCain's death as a means to slight and/or outright attack the President.
            Yep.
            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Martok View Post
              This past week's slobbering all over the memory of McCain by the Democrat establishment and members of the media had nothing to do with honoring his service in Vietnam. Or anywhere else, for that matter. It has been about using McCain's death as a means to slight and/or outright attack the President.
              There were plenty of Republicans who had kind words to say about John McCain, including the Senate Majority Leader and the Speaker of the House, and including a former Republican president, vice-president, and secretary of state. I didn't notice any 'slobbering' unless you're referring to his immediate family members crying at the loss of a husband and father.

              Of course, if you didn't watch the funeral yesterday, how would you know that?

              And any and all are entitled to their opinions and to express them in any way they see fit.

              Seems to me all you're doing is attacking people because they don't care for the current president-which is their right as well as their right to express that disgust.
              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Massena View Post
                Of course, if you didn't watch the funeral yesterday, how would you know that?
                McCain's funeral is today.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Martok View Post
                  This past week's slobbering all over the memory of McCain by the Democrat establishment and members of the media had nothing to do with honoring his service in Vietnam. Or anywhere else, for that matter. It has been about using McCain's death as a means to slight and/or outright attack the President.
                  If saying good words about a dead person who served his country is perceived by you as an attack against the president, it is because you know that the president chose not to serve his country when it called him and chose to attack a person who actually answered that call.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                  • #39
                    A funeral is a ceremony connected with the burial, cremation, or interment of a corpse, or the burial (or equivalent) with the attendant observances.

                    Observances is plural.
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Martok View Post

                      McCain's funeral is today.
                      No. The funeral was yesterday; the burial is today. The burial usually follows the funeral.
                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                        All this is the result of the fact that the Millennials have received no education and that they confound emotion with knowledge .
                        But it's not just milieniums many, many older people also seem susceptible to the massive dumbing down in public culture that has been a feature of the past twenty five years.

                        The internet has not helped and has made it in many ways much worse.

                        As I said in one of my posts in the aforementioned thread:
                        " My inital question was if the 'democratization' of military history was making the term 'hero' less meaningful.
                        I think the growing popularity of interest in the military past (if that's how you want to define democratization) and an icreasingly gringe-making 'tabloid' approach to surviving veterans has most definitely caused the term to become abused."


                        Still wondering if I should encourage robust discussion about this in possible tutes as members of the younger generation are very, very sensitive and need to be handled so bloody carefully.
                        Oh for the old days when a boots and and all approach could be taken and no one batted an eyelid!"


                        God I loved those days!
                        Teaching people HOW to think, NOT what to think!
                        Like extracting teeth with a lot of them.....but when they'd see the light (that is to say when they saw things my way) ..... worth every effort!


                        Regards lodestar


                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Massena View Post

                          My first !st Sgt who won the Navy Cross. He didn't get the Medal because he wasn't wounded in the fighting he was involved in.

                          My brother, Capt Michael J Kiley, who won four silver stars in South Vietnam in the Battle for Dak To, along with a Purple Heart. I met his CO from his first Vietnam Tour and he told me that my brother was the bravest man he had ever met.

                          General Ernest Cheatham, who won the Navy Cross in Hue City. I worked for him at Headquarters Marine Corps.

                          My father, Francis M Kiley, who was the CO of USS Spica, an attack transport, in War II.

                          There's four-that's enough-and enough to make you a person who makes false accusations because either you're dishonest or you don't know any better. So, if you don't like it, lump it. Your keyboard cowardice is getting old.
                          Heroes don't win medals, they are awarded them.
                          Last edited by Persephone; 03 Sep 18, 14:00.
                          "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                          "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                            Heroes don't win medals, they are awarded them.
                            Very well said.
                            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                              It may be off-topic but the USA is certainly not alone in expressing such an attitude-rightly or wrongly- to service in the armed forces.
                              What's your take on the militarification (my word-patent pending) of Australia's history ?
                              Glad you asked. I'm currently working on a thread-starter for the WWII forum along the lines of:
                              'Wereall WII Aussie 'Diggers' really Top Blokes?
                              I have great admiration for Australia's military tradition and would never belittle or denigrate the Australian soldier just to be provocative.
                              And the above opening gambit is just a proposed gentle prod to encourage robust debate.

                              However adulation can, and I believe has, gone a bit too far.
                              I raised it initially in my heroism thread-starter in one post and said:
                              "Want to use this thread-starter as tutorial topic but have issues
                              If I do go back to assist-tutoring I'd just love to raise this issue with the ‘young generation' as they seem so susceptible to having their minds and mind-sets shaped and manipulated by the sort of tabloid rubbish.

                              But how do I delicately suggest that their dear old grand-dad who drove a truck in Adelaide or manned a typewriter in Cairo or was on a tug/tender in port Melbourne in 1943, while no doubt a bloke doing his bit for kangaroo and country may not really be deserving to be called a hero?

                              Already had one old Uni crony from the ‘70’s dare me to do just that."
                              Stay tuned.

                              However the issue you raised about the errr…... ummm….. what was that patented term? Of right! Militarification, is a very real one and many commentators are concerned it is a phenomenon in Australia, and I'm sure the rest of the wider 'Anglo-sphere' (sorry must be the French in me).

                              A recent book What's Wrong With Anzac?: The Militarisation Of Australian History
                              by Marilyn Lake and Henry Reynolds covered the issue very well :

                              Lake herself put the dilemma she had put herself in this way:

                              "To write about what’s wrong with Anzac today is to court the charge of treason. And much else besides. When I presented a public lecture on the subject last April, which was printed in an abridged version as an ‘Opinion’ piece in the Age newspaper, and later broadcast on Radio National, an avalanche of correspondence descended, much of it in the form of personal abuse and accusations of disloyalty. In the Age blog that followed emotions ran high."

                              See what I'm getting at?
                              I'm sure a similar situation exists in regards to the military in the USA

                              Regards lodestar

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lodestar View Post

                                Glad you asked. I'm currently working on a thread-starter for the WWII forum along the lines of:
                                'Wereall WII Aussie 'Diggers' really Top Blokes?
                                I have great admiration for Australia's military tradition and would never belittle or denigrate the Australian soldier just to be provocative.
                                And the above opening gambit is just a proposed gentle prod to encourage robust debate. . . . .
                                You already know the answer: statistically speaking, if you get enough of anybody into a room, some share of them will prove "top blokes," and some share will be a$$holes. There's nothing provocative about it. "It is what it is."

                                Just keep this in mind: no Vietnam veteran has been elected, or will ever be elected, President of the United States. In the eyes of liberals/progressives, all Vietnam veterans are "baby-killers": see the lukewarm support from Democrats that greeted John Kerry's and Al Gore's runs, and the outright hostility that Bob Kerry and Wesley Clark encountered during their respective Democratic primaries. On the other hand, conservatives resent Vietnam veterans because they're a living reminder of the US' only lost war. For all the talking-up of veterans that Republicans do, they've proved time and again that they'll deride Vietnam veterans in base terms, on ephemeral and usually nonexistent character issues. In short, Vietnam veterans will likely always get the short end of the stick, from both sides.
                                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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