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  • J McCain's passing & the veneration if not near deification of war heroes since VN

    The passing of John McCain and the veneration of nearly all service people and near deification of war heroes since VN?

    The venerable John McCain’s passing raises the interesting issue of the status and the way the ‘soldier’ is perceived and regarded in the modern USA.

    I’m re-working some old 1970’s tutorial material along the lines ‘War and warriors - mythologies and realities’ (yeah, yeah, amazingly original hey) with a view to eventually assist in presenting a new tute along those lines.

    I’m interested in the phenomenon of the adoration that nowadays seems to surround the position of anyone ‘in the services’.
    Cripes even Doc Phil makes a point of saying ‘Oh by the way before we start, thank you for your service to this country’ every time he has a former service man or woman on his show.
    (Ummmm… …err…ummm… not that I watch the show, I’m just going by what my wife tells me.)

    This mythologising of vets and near deification war heroes (and don’t get me wrong McCain clearly was one) seems to be a near permanent feature of the current political landscape.


    An old episode on Australian Radio National’s ‘Late Night Live’ covering the Perth Writers Festival on modern warfare saw a question raised by American writer Kevin Powers (an Iraq War veteran, author of ‘The Yellow Birds’):
    one of the products of Vietnam has been this kind of blind inclination to valorise every soldier. To kind of deify them. To put them on a pedestal. A pedestal can be an isolating place.”

    I’m sure it’s the last thing McCain himself would have wanted.

    So, I’m interested in whether posters think that what Powers says is basically true?

    Vietnam left an indelible mark on America so the cliché goes (which of course begs the question about what the hell it did tenfold to Indo-China itself! – BTW correctly, it’s the Indo-China War).
    Not just the war itself but the subsequent treatment and ‘regard’ of returning veterans from the late 60’s to at least the late 70’s.
    Has the Post VN veneration (or near deification) of service men starting in the Reagan essentially been an overreaction to that era.

    Powers also made the point in relation to America ‘learning from its past mistakes’ (Indian Wars, Vietnam, Iraq) is that:
    When America losses its innocence you can be assured that it will get it back very soon.”

    Meaning I guess that America’s appetite for foreign ventures, justified or not, may wax and wane due to results for a particular episode but will probably never be completely sated.

    My history professors had an informal motto back in my Uni days which went something like: 'Straight answers to straight questions are for idiots and cowards, you're here to learn how to think not what to think!'


    regards lodestar

  • #2
    As a Nam VET, BS.

    We still have vets that are homeless and other with PTSD being untreated. The parades comes then fades and just like Tommy they are forgotten. Know one wants to see the wounds and torn souls, that's not what people want to see. That doesn't make people get behind the next foolish military action. Flag, lot's of flags and singing brave songs, a fly bye and a rush to the recruiter so we can go off and kill some schmuck and feel like we are defending Freedom

    You History Profession was an ass.
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

    Comment


    • #3
      John McCains a “hero” because he got captured. It’s similar to Custis being a “hero” because he was killed in action.
      "It is a fine fox chase, my boys"

      "It is well that war is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lodestar View Post
        The passing of John McCain and the veneration of nearly all service people and near deification of war heroes since VN?

        The venerable John McCain’s passing raises the interesting issue of the status and the way the ‘soldier’ is perceived and regarded in the modern USA.

        I’m re-working some old 1970’s tutorial material along the lines ‘War and warriors - mythologies and realities’ (yeah, yeah, amazingly original hey) with a view to eventually assist in presenting a new tute along those lines.

        I’m interested in the phenomenon of the adoration that nowadays seems to surround the position of anyone ‘in the services’.
        Cripes even Doc Phil makes a point of saying ‘Oh by the way before we start, thank you for your service to this country’ every time he has a former service man or woman on his show.
        (Ummmm… …err…ummm… not that I watch the show, I’m just going by what my wife tells me.)

        This mythologising of vets and near deification war heroes (and don’t get me wrong McCain clearly was one) seems to be a near permanent feature of the current political landscape.


        An old episode on Australian Radio National’s ‘Late Night Live’ covering the Perth Writers Festival on modern warfare saw a question raised by American writer Kevin Powers (an Iraq War veteran, author of ‘The Yellow Birds’):
        one of the products of Vietnam has been this kind of blind inclination to valorise every soldier. To kind of deify them. To put them on a pedestal. A pedestal can be an isolating place.”

        I’m sure it’s the last thing McCain himself would have wanted.

        So, I’m interested in whether posters think that what Powers says is basically true?

        Vietnam left an indelible mark on America so the cliché goes (which of course begs the question about what the hell it did tenfold to Indo-China itself! – BTW correctly, it’s the Indo-China War).
        Not just the war itself but the subsequent treatment and ‘regard’ of returning veterans from the late 60’s to at least the late 70’s.
        Has the Post VN veneration (or near deification) of service men starting in the Reagan essentially been an overreaction to that era.

        Powers also made the point in relation to America ‘learning from its past mistakes’ (Indian Wars, Vietnam, Iraq) is that:
        When America losses its innocence you can be assured that it will get it back very soon.”

        Meaning I guess that America’s appetite for foreign ventures, justified or not, may wax and wane due to results for a particular episode but will probably never be completely sated.

        My history professors had an informal motto back in my Uni days which went something like: 'Straight answers to straight questions are for idiots and cowards, you're here to learn how to think not what to think!'


        regards lodestar
        Please define "hero."
        My worst jump story:
        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
        No lie.

        ~
        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by American87 View Post
          John McCains a “hero” because he got captured. It’s similar to Custis being a “hero” because he was killed in action.
          BS. Once again you are getting it wrong.

          McCain suffered three broken limbs, was tortured and refused early release. That's why he is considered a hero-not because he was captured. You listen to Trump too much.
          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by American87 View Post
            John McCains a “hero” because he got captured. It’s similar to Custis being a “hero” because he was killed in action.
            Who's 'Custis'?
            We are not now that strength which in old days
            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

              Please define "hero."
              That is a great question. I could define it for you, but since (1) you don't know and (2) you would only reply with insult, I'll leave that for others.
              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Massena View Post

                That is a great question. I could define it for you, but since (1) you don't know and (2) you would only reply with insult, I'll leave that for others.
                I didn't ask you, but since you responded I'll say that you can't define the term since you've never met one or been around any.
                My worst jump story:
                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                No lie.

                ~
                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's a Gulf War phenomena. Viet Nam soldiers were spit on a defiled for their service, and no gave any thought to them throughout the Cold War, either.

                  Part of the "hero" thing is the seizure by the entertainment industry of a chance to capitalize on the Middle East with war films, series and spy films, turning the whole thing into a sort of Disneyland with live fire.

                  As for McCain, I remain troubled by his refusal to stand down even though dying of brain cancer, which calls into question all his actions post-diagnosis.

                  He was an honorable man, but not a "hero" as I define the term.
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So, how do you 'define the term.'
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

                      I didn't ask you, but since you responded I'll say that you can't define the term since you've never met one or been around any.
                      That is an extremely stupid statement. How do you know I haven't met or been around anyone who would be considered a hero? You have just dishonored the service of people I knew and have also served with.

                      So, as usual, you're full of ****.
                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Massena View Post

                        That is an extremely stupid statement. How do you know I haven't met or been around anyone who would be considered a hero? You have just dishonored the service of people I knew and have also served with.

                        So, as usual, you're full of ****.
                        Name them.
                        My worst jump story:
                        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                        No lie.

                        ~
                        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

                          Name them.
                          My first !st Sgt who won the Navy Cross. He didn't get the Medal because he wasn't wounded in the fighting he was involved in.

                          My brother, Capt Michael J Kiley, who won four silver stars in South Vietnam in the Battle for Dak To, along with a Purple Heart. I met his CO from his first Vietnam Tour and he told me that my brother was the bravest man he had ever met.

                          General Ernest Cheatham, who won the Navy Cross in Hue City. I worked for him at Headquarters Marine Corps.

                          My father, Francis M Kiley, who was the CO of USS Spica, an attack transport, in War II.

                          There's four-that's enough-and enough to make you a person who makes false accusations because either you're dishonest or you don't know any better. So, if you don't like it, lump it. Your keyboard cowardice is getting old.
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Massena View Post

                            My first !st Sgt who won the Navy Cross. He didn't get the Medal because he wasn't wounded in the fighting he was involved in.

                            My brother, Capt Michael J Kiley, who won four silver stars in South Vietnam in the Battle for Dak To, along with a Purple Heart. I met his CO from his first Vietnam Tour and he told me that my brother was the bravest man he had ever met.

                            General Ernest Cheatham, who won the Navy Cross in Hue City. I worked for him at Headquarters Marine Corps.

                            My father, Francis M Kiley, who was the CO of USS Spica, an attack transport, in War II.

                            There's four-that's enough-and enough to make you a person who makes false accusations because either you're dishonest or you don't know any better. So, if you don't like it, lump it. Your keyboard cowardice is getting old.
                            I'm surprised you didn't list yourself. To be truthful, that is a partially lame list.
                            My worst jump story:
                            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                            No lie.

                            ~
                            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post

                              I'm surprised you didn't list yourself. To be truthful, that is a partially lame list.
                              I don't act like you.

                              And your opinion on this, as on most things, is irrelevant and not worth anything. The four men that I listed are worthy of both admiration and emulation. All you remind me of is excrement.
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment

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