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Demise of the battery car and Tesla

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

    Pure Bull from ignorance.. Do you think none of the poor are socialist? Who in hell is supporting big oil today other than those that gain something in the short term. What environmental disaster can you foresee that fossil fuels have not already not visited on us? Can you answer that? Do you really think yours and others pov on electric auto's isn't going the same way as the horse and carriage? YESTERDAY MAN. keep that pov an watch how the world leaves you behind in progress of developing other forums of transport. We use to be leaders, now we are only in the way.
    Battery cars are nothing new. They never caught on in the past, and have the exact same shortcomings today. The two biggest flaws in them are short range and long recharge time. You can't get around either because you can't change the chemistry of batteries.

    The Edison battery car:



    Since then, they have been tried and tried, and they never sell well. Even today, they sell terribly compared to gasoline cars and represent about 1 to 2% of the total production of automobiles worldwide.

    The potential game changer is the fuel cell running on hydrogen. But, that technology still has some way to be fully developed. As it is, the only way countries are getting people to even buy battery cars for the most part is through massive government incentive and subsidy programs. That is, basically buying the cars for people in a sense. Even then, they don't sell well because of their shortcomings.

    Comment


    • #17
      Germany is getting 12,000 new electric car charging stations by converting distribution boxes

      https://electrek.co/2018/03/05/electric-car-charging-stations-converting-distribution-boxes/


      Stay in the past, the rest of the World really doesn't care. More profit and money for them.
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
        So? This only shows my point. That it is Progressive governments wanting what they want politically rather than what works and what the market will bear. Here in Phoenix back in the Obama administration there was a company called Ecotality. They got an initial $100 million grant (grant) from the DoE under Obama to install electric charging stations all over the Phoenix metro area. They put in $4.3 million of their own money.

        They netted just over $1000 in sales from these stations before going bankrupt. Some of the stations are still usable now owned by Blink EV who got them for pennies out of the bankruptcy.

        https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...d-R#gs.bo_N2Sw

        The stations are regular targets for vandals and copper thieves. The vandals graffiti and damage them. The thieves steal the large plug-in cable for its copper cutting it off at the station.

        So, the idiots running the German government can install charging stations all over the place. Doesn't mean they'll get used. But, a government can subsidize failure essentially forever so the stations are likely to remain. All-electric cars are less than 2% of vehicles in Germany. But, a government hell bent on a political dogma can force it on the public even if the public doesn't want it.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post

          You must have zero understanding of how costly and risky complex technological innovation is.

          Yes, it's wonderful that one of the world's most innovative companies is having troubles because it is a "political/ideological enemy" of mindless, brainwashed conservatives and big oil...
          If it's so innovative, why is it failing?

          I love tech but this is a meritocracy. It has to be worthwhile or it will fail. Your simple minded bigoted stereotype of conservatives have nothing to do with it. It is not enough for tech to be tech. It has to be WORTHWHILE tech.
          A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post

            If it's so innovative, why is it failing?

            I love tech but this is a meritocracy. It has to be worthwhile or it will fail. Your simple minded bigoted stereotype of conservatives have nothing to do with it. It is not enough for tech to be tech. It has to be WORTHWHILE tech.
            Your stuck with America as the center of every thing. Once upon a time we were. We have or are giving up our leadership on many thing of the future. So many would be arguing against the horseless carriage and investing on harnesses
            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

              So? This only shows my point. That it is Progressive governments wanting what they want politically rather than what works and what the market will bear. Here in Phoenix back in the Obama administration there was a company called Ecotality. They got an initial $100 million grant (grant) from the DoE under Obama to install electric charging stations all over the Phoenix metro area. They put in $4.3 million of their own money.

              They netted just over $1000 in sales from these stations before going bankrupt. Some of the stations are still usable now owned by Blink EV who got them for pennies out of the bankruptcy.

              https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...d-R#gs.bo_N2Sw

              The stations are regular targets for vandals and copper thieves. The vandals graffiti and damage them. The thieves steal the large plug-in cable for its copper cutting it off at the station.

              So, the idiots running the German government can install charging stations all over the place. Doesn't mean they'll get used. But, a government can subsidize failure essentially forever so the stations are likely to remain. All-electric cars are less than 2% of vehicles in Germany. But, a government hell bent on a political dogma can force it on the public even if the public doesn't want it.
              helpless. The governments, local, are installing them because of the need. The charging stations are at commercial parking lots and on public streets and you ignore it. The governments here don't build because..they build because there is a want and in the future a need. Stuck in the mud or in your case in a sand storm.
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                Your stuck with America as the center of every thing. Once upon a time we were. We have or are giving up our leadership on many thing of the future. So many would be arguing against the horseless carriage and investing on harnesses
                You dodged my question while posing a strawman. Strike one.

                Again, if Tesla is so great and innovative, why is it failing?
                A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                  helpless. The governments, local, are installing them because of the need. The charging stations are at commercial parking lots and on public streets and you ignore it. The governments here don't build because..they build because there is a want and in the future a need. Stuck in the mud or in your case in a sand storm.
                  Which part of less than 2% of vehicles would use them didn't you get? There's no demand for them. The ones here in Phoenix are in commercial parking lots and on public streets. Hasn't stopped their being vandalized and damaged. The German government is building them because that's their agenda. People aren't buying battery cars in large numbers. In the US it's even worse because the vehicles are insanely impractical.

                  For example, if I were to want to drive a Nissan Leaf, the most "popular" selling all-electric car in the US right now, from my house to Mesa Arizona on the far side of the Phoenix metro area and then back to my house, I'd have to make hotel reservations because I'd have to spend about 6 to 10 hours (depending on charge rate) charging the vehicle up to make the return trip. It can't make the round trip.

                  A Tesla can't drive from Phoenix to Flagstaff on a single charge. A round trip from Phoenix to Tucson requires a charge be made.

                  It's not like this is the first time a government has backed loser technology betting on it as "the future." It's like solar in Germany. Sounds good but is a fail in practice. Germany shut down their few nuclear plants only to find they couldn't produce enough reliable energy. So, now they're building more "clean coal" plants to replace them. How myopically stupid is that?

                  California is no better here. They have the occasional brown out and even black outs periodically now due to their "green" energy policy. You'd think you were in Cuba or Venezuela where they can't consistently keep the lights on.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post

                    You dodged my question while posing a strawman. Strike one.

                    Again, if Tesla is so great and innovative, why is it failing?

                    He's ahead of time, I think. The infrastructure is not yet available to support his cars, and likely will not be for decades to come. A Tesla would probably work much better in Europe with its relatively short distances, but just a simple commute in America can involved round trips of 120 or more miles, and American communities are spread out in ways that require automobiles to conduct any sort of business or school.

                    American vehicles must also serve many widely different purposes from mass transportation - soccer moms and the like - to hauling groceries to wandering around the countryside and playing off-road on weekends and in the summer. The Tesla does not appear to be that adaptable to the multi-role format.

                    A hydrogen cell generating electricity would probably work much better, or just hydrogen fuel.
                    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                      Your stuck with America as the center of every thing.
                      And it was the world itself with its inability to take care of its own problems that made us that way. The world still demands that America solve every crisis so that they don't have to.

                      Come on, Half Pint, you know this already.

                      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


                        He's ahead of time, I think. The infrastructure is not yet available to support his cars, and likely will not be for decades to come. A Tesla would probably work much better in Europe with its relatively short distances, but just a simple commute in America can involved round trips of 120 or more miles, and American communities are spread out in ways that require automobiles to conduct any sort of business or school.

                        American vehicles must also serve many widely different purposes from mass transportation - soccer moms and the like - to hauling groceries to wandering around the countryside and playing off-road on weekends and in the summer. The Tesla does not appear to be that adaptable to the multi-role format.

                        A hydrogen cell generating electricity would probably work much better, or just hydrogen fuel.
                        I think it's a fail all around. You can't get around the chemistry of batteries. That means long charging times and lots of mass for relatively little power. That's just how batteries work. The charging stations are a fail too. They are new and completely different infrastructure than the majority of vehicles use. That means you have to have something like handicap parking for electric vehicles. They don't fit in with the other 98% of vehicles when it comes to refueling. They require special needs.

                        Now, hydrogen makes sense. It can be stored much like gasoline or other fuels. It can be pumped into a car in the same way as gasoline. That means all you need for infrastructure is to add hydrogen to diesel, gasoline, ethanol, or other portable fuels at existing fueling (gas) stations. This isn't some massive shift in infrastructure like charging stations are. It fits within the existing paradigm.
                        Additionally, hydrogen refuels much like gasoline. You fill your tank in a few minutes and get another 350 to 400 miles of driving range. The hydrogen can be moved by tank truck to remote locations. A charging station might well require an expensive upgrade to existing power lines in such cases and would still be used by only a small fraction of vehicles.

                        Then there's the worst of it. In 5 or so years, the battery in that car is going to need replacing. That costs upwards of $10,000 + meaning there's really little resale value to battery cars because of that cost. Battery cars just don't work.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          And it was the world itself with its inability to take care of its own problems that made us that way. The world still demands that America solve every crisis so that they don't have to.
                          When Obama became POTUS, he wanted to allow the rest of the world a chance to play world leader.
                          He made America stand down and propped up other countries.
                          "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                          "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                            When Obama became POTUS, he wanted to allow the rest of the world a chance to play world leader.
                            He made America stand down and propped up other countries.
                            How'd that work out...?

                            Arab "Spring" (aka dark winter)
                            Syrian civil war
                            Rise of ISIS
                            China taking over the South China Sea
                            Iranian bribes for nukes

                            Kind of a total fail if you ask me.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                              I think it's a fail all around. You can't get around the chemistry of batteries. That means long charging times and lots of mass for relatively little power. That's just how batteries work. The charging stations are a fail too. They are new and completely different infrastructure than the majority of vehicles use. That means you have to have something like handicap parking for electric vehicles. They don't fit in with the other 98% of vehicles when it comes to refueling. They require special needs.

                              Now, hydrogen makes sense. It can be stored much like gasoline or other fuels. It can be pumped into a car in the same way as gasoline. That means all you need for infrastructure is to add hydrogen to diesel, gasoline, ethanol, or other portable fuels at existing fueling (gas) stations. This isn't some massive shift in infrastructure like charging stations are. It fits within the existing paradigm.
                              Additionally, hydrogen refuels much like gasoline. You fill your tank in a few minutes and get another 350 to 400 miles of driving range. The hydrogen can be moved by tank truck to remote locations. A charging station might well require an expensive upgrade to existing power lines in such cases and would still be used by only a small fraction of vehicles.

                              Then there's the worst of it. In 5 or so years, the battery in that car is going to need replacing. That costs upwards of $10,000 + meaning there's really little resale value to battery cars because of that cost. Battery cars just don't work.
                              They also need to figure out how to recycle those lithium ion car batteries.
                              They need to figure it out soon or else come 2025 and beyond, there will be a lot of spent car batteries going to the landfills.




                              Rise of electric cars poses battery recycling challenge


                              Canadian recycling start-up Li-Cycle says to make it profitable you need to recycle all of the battery materials. It claims it can recycle all types of lithium-ion batteries recovering up to 90 per cent of materials including lithium, cobalt, copper, and graphite. “You get the full economic value . . . that’s what will enable it to be profitable,” said Ajay Kochhar, the company’s chief executive and co-founder. “You need to look at it [in terms of] all the other valuable components contained to really understand what is going to enable this market.” Mr Kochhar estimates over 11m tonnes of spent lithium-ion batteries will be discarded by 2030. The company is looking to process 5,000 tonnes a year to start with and eventually 250,000 tonnes — a similar amount to a processing plant for mined lithium, he said.

                              https://www.ft.com/content/c489382e-...b-33fe0c5b7eaa
                              "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                              "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                                I think it's a fail all around. You can't get around the chemistry of batteries. That means long charging times and lots of mass for relatively little power. That's just how batteries work. The charging stations are a fail too. They are new and completely different infrastructure than the majority of vehicles use. That means you have to have something like handicap parking for electric vehicles. They don't fit in with the other 98% of vehicles when it comes to refueling. They require special needs.

                                Now, hydrogen makes sense. It can be stored much like gasoline or other fuels. It can be pumped into a car in the same way as gasoline. That means all you need for infrastructure is to add hydrogen to diesel, gasoline, ethanol, or other portable fuels at existing fueling (gas) stations. This isn't some massive shift in infrastructure like charging stations are. It fits within the existing paradigm.
                                Additionally, hydrogen refuels much like gasoline. You fill your tank in a few minutes and get another 350 to 400 miles of driving range. The hydrogen can be moved by tank truck to remote locations. A charging station might well require an expensive upgrade to existing power lines in such cases and would still be used by only a small fraction of vehicles.

                                Then there's the worst of it. In 5 or so years, the battery in that car is going to need replacing. That costs upwards of $10,000 + meaning there's really little resale value to battery cars because of that cost. Battery cars just don't work.
                                And there is the severe problem of recycling or disposing of those lithium ion batteries.
                                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                                Comment

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