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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    In the haste to forgive everyone, many of you are overlooking one simple fact: to tolerate something is to support it. It is within the power of the Catholics to put an end to the Church's many abuses, but pacifism takes place instead...a kind of "dynamic apathy".

    It is within the power of Muslims all over the world to stop terrorism in the name of their religion, but again it's the NIMBY* factor all over again.

    If they are not against it and actively opposing it, then they are permitting it and that puts the guilt on all members of a religion, not just the few.

    "All that is necessary for Evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

    *not in my back yard
    I am not the one who will forgive pastors who have supported pedophiles or Imams who supported terrorism. Nor am I saying that one should not criticize certain Catholics or Muslims for their failures to address serious problems. Their leaders have certainly responsibility, and this is even more so for the immediate supervisors (bishops?) of pedophile priests. If things are the way it seems to be, I see such leaders being criminally liable. But I am not going to support a campaign of vilifying Catholics followers in general or try to discredit their doctrine simply because there are tenets which help criminals execute their mission even though I I DO believe that the celibacy of Catholic priests contributes to the problem of pedophilia within the Catholic Church.
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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    • #32
      The Pope now responds:

      https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/20/europ...ntl/index.html

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      • #33
        Here's another problem:

        https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pr...cid=spartandhp

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        • #34
          Originally posted by pamak View Post

          I am not the one who will forgive pastors who have supported pedophiles or Imams who supported terrorism. Nor am I saying that one should not criticize certain Catholics or Muslims for their failures to address serious problems. Their leaders have certainly responsibility, and this is even more so for the immediate supervisors (bishops?) of pedophile priests. If things are the way it seems to be, I see such leaders being criminally liable. But I am not going to support a campaign of vilifying Catholics followers in general or try to discredit their doctrine simply because there are tenets which help criminals execute their mission even though I I DO believe that the celibacy of Catholic priests contributes to the problem of pedophilia within the Catholic Church.
          Nothing to do with vilifying Catholicism, whatever one thinks about the Roman Catholic Church's dogmas the problem is not theological but is to do with with structure and culture of the church organisation. We have a very hierarchical international body still with considerable wealth and influence in many countries which has no democratic oversight or transparency and appears to ignore its legal responsibilities by concealing criminal offences rather than reporting them to the civil authorities - in effect acting as if it is above the law. It appears to worry more about its standing rather that the well being of some of the vulnerable members of the congregation
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by pamak View Post

            I am not the one who will forgive pastors who have supported pedophiles or Imams who supported terrorism. Nor am I saying that one should not criticize certain Catholics or Muslims for their failures to address serious problems. Their leaders have certainly responsibility, and this is even more so for the immediate supervisors (bishops?) of pedophile priests. If things are the way it seems to be, I see such leaders being criminally liable. But I am not going to support a campaign of vilifying Catholics followers in general or try to discredit their doctrine simply because there are tenets which help criminals execute their mission even though I I DO believe that the celibacy of Catholic priests contributes to the problem of pedophilia within the Catholic Church.
            - emphasis mine

            I agree with all of the above save the highlighted portion -- and when I say that I disagree, on a scale of 1 to 10, the level of my disagreement reaches a 3. Blanket celibacy has served to drive otherwise normal human sexual traits underground, where they have come out sideways, in order to relieve the pressure caused from the suppression of one's inherent nature. That probably explains why many RCC priests have described the seminary as an adolescent gay bath house. In trying to repress their priests' and their seminarians' nature, the RCC has served to turn their behaviors into fetishes. Consequently seminaries tend to attract gay men at a disproportionate rate. That being said, I'd rate pedophilia as a whole different thing that homosexuality. The latter involves adults of sexual maturity capable of giving or withholding consent; the former targets those who are not sexually mature and are incapable of giving or withholding consent. Considering the prevalence of pederasty among countless faiths and denominations, and among an equal number of secular institutions like sports clubs, Boy Scouts, and schools, etc, pedophiles have proven their willingness and their capacity to penetrate any organization, gain trust of parents and communities, for the express purpose of achieving access to vulnerable children. The issue then isn't celibacy or homosexuality, but deceit and sociopathy.

            Just out of curiosity, I'm aware of sexual misconduct among Orthodox clergy in the US, Russian and Greek, from OCA, Synod, and Patriarchate organizations, but I know nothing of the situation abroad. Has anything like this been reported in Greece, or are Greeks too conditioned, like Hasidim, to ever accuse their clergy? Yes, I know that I may be asking you to do the impossible -- to prove a negative -- but I very strongly believe that, regardless of our ethnic or national or religious backgrounds, we are all liable to temptation and some members of all of our communities will succumb to those temptations. I believe that to be an axiomatic fact.
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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            • #36
              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
              - emphasis mine

              I agree with all of the above save the highlighted portion -- and when I say that I disagree, on a scale of 1 to 10, the level of my disagreement reaches a 3. Blanket celibacy has served to drive otherwise normal human sexual traits underground, where they have come out sideways, in order to relieve the pressure caused from the suppression of one's inherent nature. That probably explains why many RCC priests have described the seminary as an adolescent gay bath house. In trying to repress their priests' and their seminarians' nature, the RCC has served to turn their behaviors into fetishes. Consequently seminaries tend to attract gay men at a disproportionate rate. That being said, I'd rate pedophilia as a whole different thing that homosexuality. The latter involves adults of sexual maturity capable of giving or withholding consent; the former targets those who are not sexually mature and are incapable of giving or withholding consent. Considering the prevalence of pederasty among countless faiths and denominations, and among an equal number of secular institutions like sports clubs, Boy Scouts, and schools, etc, pedophiles have proven their willingness and their capacity to penetrate any organization, gain trust of parents and communities, for the express purpose of achieving access to vulnerable children. The issue then isn't celibacy or homosexuality, but deceit and sociopathy.

              Just out of curiosity, I'm aware of sexual misconduct among Orthodox clergy in the US, Russian and Greek, from OCA, Synod, and Patriarchate organizations, but I know nothing of the situation abroad. Has anything like this been reported in Greece, or are Greeks too conditioned, like Hasidim, to ever accuse their clergy? Yes, I know that I may be asking you to do the impossible -- to prove a negative -- but I very strongly believe that, regardless of our ethnic or national or religious backgrounds, we are all liable to temptation and some members of all of our communities will succumb to those temptations. I believe that to be an axiomatic fact.
              I am not aware of such cases in Greece. I recall sexual orgies of some or another kind but not child abuse cases. On the other hand, as I said before we are talking about a nation of 10 million Orthodox (in practice the real followers are wayyyyyyyyyy less) compared to a Catholic Church which is all over the world with hundreds of millions of followers. So, one cannot simply compare the number of cases of child abuse to make judgments about the different churches. I certainly do not know anything about the Russian Orthodox church but I assume that if there was something, it would have become known through international media.
              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                I am not aware of such cases in Greece. I recall sexual orgies of some or another kind but not child abuse cases. On the other hand, as I said before we are talking about a nation of 10 million Orthodox (in practice the real followers are wayyyyyyyyyy less) compared to a Catholic Church which is all over the world with hundreds of millions of followers. So, one cannot simply compare the number of cases of child abuse to make judgments about the different churches. I certainly do not know anything about the Russian Orthodox church but I assume that if there was something, it would have become known through international media.
                Merely speculating here, but might the lack of reports of sex crimes against children in Greece be caused by the place that the Greek Orthodox Church occupies in Greek culture? For example, the Roman Catholic Church in the Irish Republic has long held a rather prominent and lofty position, since Roman Catholic Irish were oppressed by Protestant English and Scots for a very long time, therefore upon gaining independence, the Roman Catholic Church was viewed by many as inseparable from the cause and the glory of a free Ireland. Only now, decades after Ireland's independence, are abuses by RCC clerics being made public. Likewise, the Greek Orthodox Church played a similar role in resisting Ottoman occupation and oppression, and the GOC is viewed as inseparable from the cause of Greek independence. Can not the same dynamic be in play: the GOC is viewed as sacrosanct, and therefore cases of abuse are not being made public for fear of defaming an institution that was indispensable to the cause of Greek freedom?
                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                • #38
                  Slick, I think that you're looking at the whole seminary thing backwards. Here is my theory. You're a boy in a very religious family who has evil thoughts (pedophilia). You think that if you become a priest, you can kill two birds with one stone. First, your parents and siblings will be proud of you. Second, surely God will banish these sick desires from you since you are serving him. Once they get into the seminary (frat house), one night they have too much altar wine and start to open up to one another. It turns out that a sizable percentage are pedophiles and the ones that aren't, don't want to be snitches. So they cover for each other and as time goes by, they get promoted to monsignor, bishop, cardinal and the coverup just gets bigger and bigger.

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