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Double standards in how we cover Saudi Arabian and Iranian behavior and statements

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  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    People will notice that Pamak continues his usual tactic , which is
    1 To move the goalposts by talking now about illegality of CW,which is not the subject of the discussion .
    2 By saying ,without proofs, that the use of CW was intentionally directed against children.
    3 Inventing excuses for Erdogan ,while I never condemned the Turkisk air attacks against Kurds .

    The FACT is that Pamak and Massena condemn what Assad is doing, but invent excuses for what Erdogan is doing, which is the same as what Assad is doing = air attacks against military targets where are living civilians, and such air attacks will always cause civilian casualties .
    BTW the international coalition did the same in Lybia and in Raqqa .

    And for Massena : your whining that Assad killed his own people is liberal nonsense and indicates a total lack on military and historical knowledge :there is a civil war in Syria AND in Turkey where both parties are killing their own people .
    Franco killed also a lot of his own people, but no one said that this was disqualifying him as head of state , even the SU had diplomatic relations with Franco and Ike visited Spain .
    The fact that Massena and Pamak attack Assad who fights against the enemies of their country ,but refuse to attack Erdogan who is not fighting against the enemies of their country, indicates that Pamak and Massena have a lot of sympathies for the enemies of their country .
    Nope!

    You distort my position:

    I am not the one who tries to find excuses for a nation that commits illegal acts, violates international law and rights in occupied territories or repress freedom or support terrorism, and I do not care if the nation is called Iran or Turkey or Kurdistan or Israel. I never said that I do not condemn Erdogan or the Turks for their state sponsored terrorism against the Kurds. I also never said that I do not condemn the Kurds for their terrorist actions against Turkish civilians. I also never said that I do not condemn the Iranians for many of their actions against their own citizens or for their state sponsored terrorism against Israel.I consistently condemn offender of every side, including the offenders mentioned above and I do not try to hide their actions or justify breaches of the international law using excuses.

    What I do say is that the Iranians (because this is how the conversation in this thread started) have not committed any action that separates them from the cesspool of the region to justify some special response from our part. And I reject your claims about their supposedly aggression and supposedly Iranian invasion and occupation of Kurdistan in Iraq (which was never meant to be independent ) when Iran has actually the permission of the Iraqi government to be in Iraq, and when I see wayyy more clear cases of illegal Israeli invasions and occupation in West Bank despite the lack of local or international permission for such presence there.

    So, I say that If we can choose to live with Turkey as our ally, we can certainly live with NOT starting bombing Iran as you sooo eagerly want. I also want to clarify something else: The fact that I attacked Assad does not mean that I propose an invasion in Syria. I was never into new adventures in the region. Still, I see the ACTUAL use of WMD against civilians as sufficient reason to trigger a limited response. This is much more reasonable compared to your basic position which is that we should bomb the heck out of Iran because we should ASSUME that it has violated the nuclear agreements and will produce WMD in the future that it MAY use against a nuclear-armed Israel.

    I aslo hate distortion of facts: So, if you say that Assad used CW against ISIS, I will produce the map to show that he did not use it in ISIS controlled territory. And if you say (as you DID) that "Non intentional attacks of civilians are legal ,otherwise war would be impossible"

    https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...75#post5057075

    then , of COURSE, I will point that the use of the chemical weapons is ILLEGAL under ANY circumstances. and against ANYBODY. And if you say that Iran or Turkey helped ISIS, I will question the rumors and allegations provided by your sources and provide instead the actual facts we know that happened on the ground. And such facts include the Iranian and Turkish attacks against ISIS targets and the actual execution of Turkish soldiers captured by ISIS. In short, I will not help you invent lies and excuses to justify a new war in the region against a new country. If you want to spend money and fight the war of Israel or Kurdistan, feel free to do it. It is just that you cannot convince me that I have to fight or more accurately pay for it.
    Last edited by pamak; 23 Aug 18, 04:52.

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  • ljadw
    replied
    People will notice that Pamak continues his usual tactic , which is
    1 To move the goalposts by talking now about illegality of CW,which is not the subject of the discussion .
    2 By saying ,without proofs, that the use of CW was intentionally directed against children.
    3 Inventing excuses for Erdogan ,while I never condemned the Turkisk air attacks against Kurds .

    The FACT is that Pamak and Massena condemn what Assad is doing, but invent excuses for what Erdogan is doing, which is the same as what Assad is doing = air attacks against military targets where are living civilians, and such air attacks will always cause civilian casualties .
    BTW the international coalition did the same in Lybia and in Raqqa .

    And for Massena : your whining that Assad killed his own people is liberal nonsense and indicates a total lack on military and historical knowledge :there is a civil war in Syria AND in Turkey where both parties are killing their own people .
    Franco killed also a lot of his own people, but no one said that this was disqualifying him as head of state , even the SU had diplomatic relations with Franco and Ike visited Spain .
    The fact that Massena and Pamak attack Assad who fights against the enemies of their country ,but refuse to attack Erdogan who is not fighting against the enemies of their country, indicates that Pamak and Massena have a lot of sympathies for the enemies of their country .

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Try again? Because you can't comprehend facts?

    You need to get out of your alternate reality.
    If you think that you read the fact that the US government and Clinton supported ISIS during Obama's presidency, it is you who needs to get out of his alternative reality. Again, your lack of reading comprehension creates such distortions. Your quotes do not show any of the facts you claim.

    You also verify what I said earlier with respect to the allegations we have heard from different sources. if an American citizen motivated by political fanaticism is willing to argue that his country supports ISIS, nobody should be surprised if Turkish citizens in a much more unstable and hostile political environment make similar claims against their political opponents. Still, such claims are worthless without corroboration and in the presence of clear facts which show that both US under Obama and Turkey under Erdogan targeted ISIS!
    Last edited by pamak; 22 Aug 18, 21:33.

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  • Nichols
    replied
    Originally posted by pamak View Post
    Try again
    Try again? Because you can't comprehend facts?

    You need to get out of your alternate reality.

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    As usual, you are very economical with the truth,because you have NO proofs,unless your own bragging that Assad has INTENTIONALLY targeted Syrian civilians .
    I DEMAND a proof, but I expect that you will remain silent .

    BTW : a proof is NOT a Deep State lie, but a written order from Assad to target civilians .
    What the Syrian air force did was to attack military targets with CW.That in these military targets were living civilians, used as human shield by ISIS, is not the responsibility of Assad, but the responsibility of ISIS and its Western allies ,in Europe and in the USA .
    Assad is the head of state of Syria because he is supported by the majority of the Syrians who prefer him above ISIS and do not want a president who is the puppet of Deep State,as in Ukraine . The Syrians (and especially the christians) know what happened in Libya because of the intervention of the western liberals, and they refuse this scenario for Syria .

    First of all your rhetoric resembles that of the Holocaust deniers you so much hate in theory. They demand the EXACT dame type of proof. A written order signed by Hitler ordering his army to gas Jews. As you know, we do not have such documents, and we DO NOT NEED SUCH LEVEL OF PROOF!

    This type of proof should be enough!

    https://www.opcw.org/news/article/op...saraqib-syria/

    THE HAGUE, Netherlands — 16 May 2018 —The Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), confirmed in a report released yesterday that chlorine was likely used as a chemical weapon on 4 February 2018 in Saraqib, Idlib Governorate, Syrian Arab Republic.

    The FFM determined that chlorine was released from cylinders by mechanical impact in the Al Talil neighbourhood of Saraqib.

    The conclusions are based inter alia on the presence of two cylinders, which were determined as previously containing chlorine; witness testimony; environmental samples that demonstrated the unusual presence of chlorine in the local environment; and the number of patients at medical facilities shortly after the incident who showed signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to chlorine and other toxic chemicals.



    Just because there are military targets in a city, it does not mean that one can do whatever he wants against that city. Finding excuses to link civilian targets to the army is something every terrorist can do. Every city has some facilities which are used by a military (communications is the most obvious example), and in countries with conscript armies (Greece-Turkey-Syria-Israel-Egypt, etc) almost every citizen (except the very young and the very old) is part of the army's reserve!

    Also, as I said, it is illegal to use CW even against military targets!
    Last edited by pamak; 22 Aug 18, 16:08.

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  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    Non intentional attacks of civilians are legal ,otherwise war would be impossible .And, there is no proof that civilians were intentionally attacked with poison gas . Besides, it is not possible to do this and there is no reason to do this .
    Assad used poison gas against ISIS and the allies of ISIS, people who are responsible for the death of thousands of western civilians ,these attacks resulted in civilian casualties,which are regrettable, but not the responsibility of Assad ,but of ISIS: it was ISIS who used these civilians as a human shield ,hoping on a win-win situation : if Assad attacked them, there would be civilian casualties, which would give the allies of ISIS the occasion to whine, if he did not attack,these cities would be sanctuaries :Obama's air attacks in Lybya and the Turkish air attacks against the Kurds in Anatolia resulted also in civilian losses, but the hypocrites in the west preferred to remain silent .And, where was Deep State when, with the US approval, Saddam Hussein was gazing the Iraqi Kurds ?
    Since 1978 the Kurds are fighting for their independence from Turkey,in this war tens of thousands have been killed, mostly civilians . But the ''international community '' remained silent : Kurdish children killed by Erdogan are quantité negligable , but children who are used as hostages by ISIS are used against Assad .
    Almost 2000 civilians were killed by the international anti ISIS coalition during the battle of Raqqa, but Deep State remained silent .
    Gassing was very intentional. Not only that, but it is actually ilegal to use it even against military personnel. More than that, the incident was not against an ISIS controlled town! See the location of the city (Douma) on the map

    https://www.economist.com/middle-eas...ttack-in-syria

    20180414_wom983_0.png


    As for the Kurds an their struggle for independence, do not give me a lecture! In Greece the Kurds' struggle was always part of the news and we were not the ones who were pushing for recognizing PKK as a terrorist organization. You see it seems only the big powers have the prerogative to kill innocent civilians when they are reluctant to face the regular army in the field despite their huge conventional military advantage for fear of suffering excessive casualties. If we drop an atomic bomb trying to accomplish our objective by killing innocent civilians, then it is okay because we minimize casualties for both sides, but when a small guy tries to accomplish his objective and minimize its casualties by killing innocent civilians instead of facing the enemy's regular (and much stronger army) army in the field, then this is terrorism..And you also need to realize that reality is more messy. It is not only Erdogan or the Turkish government before him which have killed Kurdish kids. It is also the Kurds who have killed Turkish kids by their terrorist, indeed ,methods! As I am saying from the beginning; One cannot simplify things in the way you try to do...
    Last edited by pamak; 22 Aug 18, 17:14.

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  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    I make things up and chose stories from Turkish opposition papers ??
    The( liberal ) Institute for the Study of Human Rights at the Columbia University have compiled a long list of evidences of Turlish support for ISIS in Syria,published as a Research paper ISIS-Turkey .Evidences of funding, training, etc of ISIS .
    I saw the link, and I just saw a list of ALLEGATIONS coming from different articles without actually giving the assessment regarding their credibility, and without mentioning anything about the internal Turkish politics . And yes, if you do not know the politics in Turkey and you do not present the internal struggles there, you are incapable to assess the sources you use. Erdogan had always been in confrontation with the secular Turks and even with the leadership of the Army (which was always secular according to Kemal 's ideas). This class between secularism and Islam in Turkish politics goes beyond the usual political confrontation you see between political opponents in western democracies. For example, Erdogan a few years ago survived a coup by elements of the Turkish Army which in turn gave him an opportunity to start purges (actually intensify) against his political enemies.. Greece right now has a few Turkish OFFICERS who asked asylum to escape Erdogan's persecutions!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2...dent_in_Greece

    Add to the above, the decades old Kurdish problem (and there are Kurdish affiliated paper and even Kurdish representatives in the Turkish Parliament),, and you can see how in this environment you can find hundreds of articles coming from the opposition (secular and Kurds) trying to connect Erdogan to fundamentalist Islamic terrorists! Heck, even in more stable democracies, you can browse the newspapers and find articles claiming that the political opponents are funding Muslim terrorists or rape small children in Pizza restaurants. Still, without getting corroboration for such allegations, you have nothing but rumors spread by the opposition!
    Last edited by pamak; 22 Aug 18, 16:56.

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  • Massena
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post

    I make things up...?
    Yes, you do-often and enthusiastically. And anyone who posts something with which you do not agree you unilaterally declare them a 'liar.' All you post is utter nonsense.

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  • ljadw
    replied
    I can publish not dozens, but hundreds of pictures of dead civilians, including children from during and after WWII ;pictures from the suburbs of Paris, of Stalingrad, dresden, Liverpool, Coventry, London, Maastricht,Berlin, Courtrai, Charleroi, Tokyo,Manilla, Mortsel (suburb of Antwerp)where in April 1943 almost 1000 civilians were killed, including hundreds of children,by an allied air attack, or of the cinema Rex in Antwerp where a V2 killed in December 16 1944 567 persons of which 271 civilians, 64 women and 74 minors .
    These civilians died, not because they were targeted intentionally by aircraft,as is claiming Massena ,as usual not hindered by any basic knowledge, but because they were living in a military target .
    A military target as Raqqa, where during the fighting to liberate it, 80 % of the city was destroyed and and almost 2000 civilians killed : were they intentionally targeted ? No : these civilian losses were collateral damage .

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  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by pamak View Post




    You mean against the civilians and babies who were killed because they were our enemies?


    Syria_News_Guide-640_x2.jpg




    If your idea is that it is not our business if Assad poisons his people, then I will say that it is not our business if Iran does not want an independent Kurdistan. Recall that it was part of the deal for the formation of an Iraqi government to have a Kurdistan which was not an independent state. And the US had agreed to such terms! I will also say that it is not our business to fight Israel's war when the latter is more than capable to protect itself from occasional mortar grounds from Hezbollah or other Iranian proxies.

    Also, there are no countless stories of Turkey selling weapons to ISIS. You make things up and you choose to say things that only newspapers of the opposition decide to publish (the newspaper you mention belongs to the US-based Turkish cleric Gullen)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_Gülen

    As I told you, we know from Iraq's case that defectors and the opposition cannot be trusted just because they oppose a bad guy. So, NEVER accept at face value what they say without farther corroboration from other sources. When the direct sources we have include clear videos of Turkish soldiers burned alive by ISIS with messages by ISIS addressing specifically Turkey, and when we have clear Turkish attacks against ISIS (more on that at the bottom of the post), it is obvious that we have direct and strong evidence of the fact that Turkey actually fights ISIS which is not based on allegations or rumors we read in articles. The fact that ISIS has the Kurds as its enemy does not mean that it is willing to be an ally with anybody who is against the Kurds. Assad is also against the Kurds! Iraq is also against the Kurds and still ISIS is against both Assad and Iraq. ISIS is a radical organization which has not shown signs that it is interested in any power sharing or in accepting compromise with allies, even temporary ones!

    As for your second source, its author is also a Turk named Ahmet S. Yayla who also lives in the US. if you actually read the article, it does not say Turkey helped (at least intentionally) ISIS. His claim is that they neglected to take early measures against it. From his article'

    By all accounts, foreign fighters from around the globe first traveled to Turkey and then on to Iraq and Syria, forming the backbone and striking power of the Islamic State. In 2013 alone, some 30,000 militants traversed Turkish soil, establishing the so-called jihadi highway, as the country became a conduit for fighters seeking to join the Islamic State. By August 2015, Turkey did eventually tighten up its borders and agree to engage in strike missions as part of Operation Inherent Resolve, but by then, the lion’s share of foreign fighters had already arrived in Iraq and Syria.

    Turkey never had a secure southern border. I know this very well because I have followed the Kurdish movement in Turkey for years since the Kurds were a nature ally of Greece since in case of a war, they were going to be the "second front". Kurdish groups frequent crossed the borders from Syria to Turkey and back to Syria during their wars against Turkey! Here is an older article describing the decades old Turkish-Kurdish fight

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    In the long run, such operations were of limited success.2 While many Kurdish nationalists were jailed or killed, others simply went underground or found refuge abroad.22 The PKK, for instance, succeeded in regrouping in Syria.

    The PKK mentioned above is the Kurdish guerrilla force (and designated terrorist organization by the US and NATO). In essense, the Kurdish operations resembled a lot those of Palestinian guerrilla groups which used at some point neighbor countries to stage raids against Israel. This fact together with the fact that the Southern Eastern Turkey region had a majority of Kurdish population and villages meant that for the Turkish army it was always a challenge to establish a tight control in the region, and whenever it did it (often during periods of escalation) there was a price the Turkish army had to pay. Here is again the map of Turkey with the regions that have Kurds being the majority of the population

    Kurdish_settlements_in_the_majority_and_minority.png


    As it is obvious, the borders with Syria and Iraq have a majority of the population being quite hostile to the Turkish government and army. For these reasons, it does not surprise me to hear that in the beginning militants who were traveling to join ISIS in Syria or Iraq could use this loose control of the borders in this region.

    Still, it is clear that at some point Turkey realized that they had to step up their control in the southern region. It started because they were mostly concerned about the danger of having an independent Kurdish region near their vulnerable southeastern border. But of course, they could not say this! The official Turkish story was that they were entering Syria too fight ISIS. Nevertheless, it is clear that ISIS never accepted the Turkish rhetoric and presence in the Syrian region and has repeatedly targeted Turkey on numerous times. The soldiers who were burned is just ONE example. Another one is the bombing in Instanbul

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&ct=clnk&gl=us
    Turkey strikes more than 100 Isis targets in Syria after Istanbul nightclub attack


















    I make things up and chose stories from Turkish opposition papers ??
    The( liberal ) Institute for the Study of Human Rights at the Columbia University have compiled a long list of evidences of Turlish support for ISIS in Syria,published as a Research paper ISIS-Turkey .Evidences of funding, training, etc of ISIS .

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    At december 28 2011, there was an attack by the Turkish air force in Roboski (Turkey ) where 34 Kurdish civilians were killed , Where was Pamak, where was Massena, where were all these liberals ? They were looking the other side,when Erdogan was killing Kurdish civilians, but when the same happened in Syria, all we heard was hypocritical indignation.And, where was Massena and Pamak when Syrian civilians were killed by western bombe, and where were they when Libyan civilians were killed by western bombs ? NATO admitted 72 Libyan civilian deaths, but the number is of course much higher.
    And, Massena and Pamak : where were you when ISIS murdered thousands of Syrian civilians ,and this with the help of the Obama administration ?

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    The Syrians have gassed their own people which is 'beyond the Pale.' He is as bad as ISIS and is a war criminal. Assad has intentionally targeted Syrian civilians and he still wants to be head of state?

    By the way, what experience to you have in any armed forces or in any war? You talk big, but overwhelmingly as an ignorant bystander. You are safe and sound where you are, are you not? What, if anything, in your life experience caused you to get shot at?
    As usual, you are very economical with the truth,because you have NO proofs,unless your own bragging that Assad has INTENTIONALLY targeted Syrian civilians .
    I DEMAND a proof, but I expect that you will remain silent .
    BTW : a proof is NOT a Deep State lie, but a written order from Assad to target civilians .
    What the Syrian air force did was to attack military targets with CW.That in these military targets were living civilians, used as human shield by ISIS, is not the responsibility of Assad, but the responsibility of ISIS and its Western allies ,in Europe and in the USA .
    Assad is the head of state of Syria because he is supported by the majority of the Syrians who prefer him above ISIS and do not want a president who is the puppet of Deep State,as in Ukraine . The Syrians (and especially the christians) know what happened in Libya because of the intervention of the western liberals, and they refuse this scenario for Syria .

    Leave a comment:


  • Emtos
    replied
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    The Syrians have gassed their own people which is 'beyond the Pale.' He is as bad as ISIS and is a war criminal. Assad has intentionally targeted Syrian civilians and he still wants to be head of state?
    That was never proven therefore it's a lie.

    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    By the way, what experience to you have in any armed forces or in any war? You talk big, but overwhelmingly as an ignorant bystander. You are safe and sound where you are, are you not? What, if anything, in your life experience caused you to get shot at?
    What about answering all the questions asked to you before questioning others ?


    Leave a comment:


  • Massena
    replied
    The Syrians have gassed their own people which is 'beyond the Pale.' He is as bad as ISIS and is a war criminal. Assad has intentionally targeted Syrian civilians and he still wants to be head of state?

    By the way, what experience to you have in any armed forces or in any war? You talk big, but overwhelmingly as an ignorant bystander. You are safe and sound where you are, are you not? What, if anything, in your life experience caused you to get shot at?

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    Non intentional attacks of civilians are legal ,otherwise war would be impossible .And, there is no proof that civilians were intentionally attacked with poison gas . Besides, it is not possible to do this and there is no reason to do this .
    Assad used poison gas against ISIS and the allies of ISIS, people who are responsible for the death of thousands of western civilians ,these attacks resulted in civilian casualties,which are regrettable, but not the responsibility of Assad ,but of ISIS: it was ISIS who used these civilians as a human shield ,hoping on a win-win situation : if Assad attacked them, there would be civilian casualties, which would give the allies of ISIS the occasion to whine, if he did not attack,these cities would be sanctuaries :Obama's air attacks in Lybya and the Turkish air attacks against the Kurds in Anatolia resulted also in civilian losses, but the hypocrites in the west preferred to remain silent .And, where was Deep State when, with the US approval, Saddam Hussein was gazing the Iraqi Kurds ?
    Since 1978 the Kurds are fighting for their independence from Turkey,in this war tens of thousands have been killed, mostly civilians . But the ''international community '' remained silent : Kurdish children killed by Erdogan are quantité negligable , but children who are used as hostages by ISIS are used against Assad .
    Almost 2000 civilians were killed by the international anti ISIS coalition during the battle of Raqqa, but Deep State remained silent .

    Leave a comment:

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