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  • Legal Immigrants are Trump's next Target

    The Trump administration is expected to issue a proposal in coming weeks that would make it harder for legal immigrants to become citizens or get green cards if they have ever used a range of popular public welfare programs, including Obamacare, four sources with knowledge of the plan told NBC News.

    The move, which would not need congressional approval, is part of White House senior adviser Stephen Miller's plan to limit the number of migrants who obtain legal status in the U.S. each year.

    Immigration lawyers and advocates and public health researchers say it would be the biggest change to the legal immigration system in decades and estimate that more than 20 million immigrants could be affected. They say it would fall particularly hard on immigrants working jobs that don't pay enough to support their families.

    Many are like Louis Charles, a Haitian green-card holder seeking citizenship who, despite working up to 80 hours a week as a nursing assistant, has had to use public programs to support his disabled adult daughter.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...grants-n897931

    The problem is this is not going to target moochers, but hard working middle class immigrants. If I'm not mistaking you can earn $50k a year, as an individual, and still qualify for tax credits under obama care. Without the credits you'll be paying around 400-500 a month on medical insurance which is a lot of money for someone making 50k. But, anyone earning that amount is not someone who is just trying to live off of welfare and take advantage of our system, yet Trump and the republicans still want them gone. All they're trying to do with this is reverse the demographic trend.

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

  • #2
    $400 is perfectly reasonable if the coverage is comprehensive. I know people that think nothing of buying a $40,000 car but think their health care should be free. Health care is 17.8 percent of GDP. That would be $8900 dollars for a person earning $50,000 which is still considerably lower than $10,400 per capita cost. Even if looked at from a means test perspective $400 dollars is a bargain. People that can afford health insurance but don't want to pay for it have to be realistic. You need health care you don't need an expensive car and a 3000 square foot home.

    One way or the other supply and demand controls health care. If you artificially lower cost supply will decline. If you increase demand costs will go up. These laws of economics come into play even if you socialize health care.

    The thing liberals never consider is that somebody has to provide the services they want to give away. If we started today it would take thirty years to train professionals willing to provide health care at costs that would reduce the percent of GDP being spent and the tremendous national debt means that not much can be done in the meantime. It's not about money it's about actual wealth in terms of goods and services available.

    One of the big reasons we are not wealthy enough to afford universal high quality health care is regulation. A clean safe environment is very expensive, especially if includes defense, law enforcement and emergency services. Government employees for the most part do not directly create wealth. Americans are simply living beyond the limits of the wealth they are generating. This is best illustrated by the declining infrastructure which like the national debt is a form of borrowing on past and future productivity. You can tax the rich all you want but that will only illuminate the gap between paper money and real wealth. Keep in mind that things such as homes do not produce wealth and are part of the illusion.
    We hunt the hunters

    Comment


    • #3
      I think the best example of what I'm talking about are my liberal friends who think a granite countertop is important but the concrete patch for the street is someone else's problem. It is also worth noting that the immigrants that mow their lawns because they are too lazy do not add to the nation real wealth which can only be measured in productive capacity. In part it is the feminization of society illustrated by Obama and Trudeau that drives the narrative in ways that are impractical. Every problem is not an infant that needs care because very little of life revolves around infant care. Empathy is only useful if the practical problems of life are solved first.
      We hunt the hunters

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

        The problem is this is not going to target moochers, but hard working middle class immigrants.
        They can not work in the US until they get a green card. They have to be self sustaining until they are eligible to work. This isn't anything new and the in named sources probably know this.
        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
          $400 is perfectly reasonable if the coverage is comprehensive. I know people that think nothing of buying a $40,000 car but think their health care should be free. Health care is 17.8 percent of GDP. That would be $8900 dollars for a person earning $50,000 which is still considerably lower than $10,400 per capita cost. Even if looked at from a means test perspective $400 dollars is a bargain. People that can afford health insurance but don't want to pay for it have to be realistic. You need health care you don't need an expensive car and a 3000 square foot home.

          One way or the other supply and demand controls health care. If you artificially lower cost supply will decline. If you increase demand costs will go up. These laws of economics come into play even if you socialize health care.

          The thing liberals never consider is that somebody has to provide the services they want to give away. If we started today it would take thirty years to train professionals willing to provide health care at costs that would reduce the percent of GDP being spent and the tremendous national debt means that not much can be done in the meantime. It's not about money it's about actual wealth in terms of goods and services available
          .

          One of the big reasons we are not wealthy enough to afford universal high quality health care is regulation. A clean safe environment is very expensive, especially if includes defense, law enforcement and emergency services. Government employees for the most part do not directly create wealth. Americans are simply living beyond the limits of the wealth they are generating. This is best illustrated by the declining infrastructure which like the national debt is a form of borrowing on past and future productivity. You can tax the rich all you want but that will only illuminate the gap between paper money and real wealth. Keep in mind that things such as homes do not produce wealth and are part of the illusion.
          Nope!

          and

          Nope!

          It is well established by numerous studies that the American health system is way more expensive than the socialized one in European countries.

          https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...stract/2674671


          In 2016, the US spent 17.8% of its gross domestic product on health care, and spending in the other countries ranged from 9.6% (Australia) to 12.4% (Switzerland). The proportion of the population with health insurance was 90% in the US, lower than the other countries (range, 99%-100%), and the US had the highest proportion of private health insurance (55.3%).

          It is the high proportion of private insurance which pushes the prices of the American medical system up. In the EU, there is also private insurance but its role is more of supplementing the social one for those people who want (and can afford) to have extra benefits that are not provided by socialized healthcare.

          As for what we can do until we train professional willing to provide healthcare at lower cost, we can do what we do for the "plebes" in manual labor or the engineers! Increase supply and competition by bringing more foreign trained doctors. There are many well qualified foreigners who can satisfy the standards of American medicine and who will be thrilled to have an opportunity to make much more money in the US than in India or China. Immigration CAN be used to bring prices down. We just have to pick the right target and not try to screw the American worker in low level jobs.

          Sure, the transitional period cannot be abrupt and I would not expect to suddenly have prices reach European socialized medicine levels, but there can certainly be a gradual process in which people at least will see a gradual reduction of the price they pay for American medicine. Under these conditions, it is not a problem if the transitional period takes 20 years or 30 years. Meanwhile, the should attract new medial students who come from a humble background and their dads are not doctors. These people will be willing to get heavy federal assistance to finish the very expensive medical schools and give in return the promise of serving for a few decades the socialized medical system.
          Last edited by pamak; 10 Aug 18, 01:23.
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
            $400 is perfectly reasonable if the coverage is comprehensive. I know people that think nothing of buying a $40,000 car but think their health care should be free. Health care is 17.8 percent of GDP. That would be $8900 dollars for a person earning $50,000 which is still considerably lower than $10,400 per capita cost. Even if looked at from a means test perspective $400 dollars is a bargain. People that can afford health insurance but don't want to pay for it have to be realistic. You need health care you don't need an expensive car and a 3000 square foot home.

            One way or the other supply and demand controls health care. If you artificially lower cost supply will decline. If you increase demand costs will go up. These laws of economics come into play even if you socialize health care.

            The thing liberals never consider is that somebody has to provide the services they want to give away. If we started today it would take thirty years to train professionals willing to provide health care at costs that would reduce the percent of GDP being spent and the tremendous national debt means that not much can be done in the meantime. It's not about money it's about actual wealth in terms of goods and services available.

            One of the big reasons we are not wealthy enough to afford universal high quality health care is regulation. A clean safe environment is very expensive, especially if includes defense, law enforcement and emergency services. Government employees for the most part do not directly create wealth. Americans are simply living beyond the limits of the wealth they are generating. This is best illustrated by the declining infrastructure which like the national debt is a form of borrowing on past and future productivity. You can tax the rich all you want but that will only illuminate the gap between paper money and real wealth. Keep in mind that things such as homes do not produce wealth and are part of the illusion.
            You're off topic but health insurance has doubled in cost since obamacare. If you're implying that I want something for free, I don't, what I want is the cost we previously had and no mandate. The only thing that needed to be addressed was denying people with pre existing conditions. But again this is all an entirely different discussion.

            400 per month is high when considering the deductibles are high as well. And again is not something that shoukd be forced on anyone. But the point is should someone making 50k or anyone who is clearly working hard be witheld citizenship because they're using tax credits with obamacare? It is disingenuousness to hold that against someone when Trump was supposed to repeal the damn thing.

            He has no problem using the burden of obamacare against legal immigrants though because it's a way for him to decrease potential democrat support and preserve what he deems as American culture.
            "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
            - Benjamin Franklin

            The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

            Comment


            • #7
              The welfare states are basket cases so stop telling me how wonderful they are.

              https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/7...bt-by-country/

              As far as immigration goes most immigrants are not adding to productive capacity. If you at California the tech giants keep it afloat but they are mostly circus.

              Fix the economy and national debt then talk to me about new programs.
              We hunt the hunters

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                They can not work in the US until they get a green card. They have to be self sustaining until they are eligible to work. This isn't anything new and the in named sources probably know this.
                This isn't true, but I should have been more clear. The problem is if immigrants use Obamacare they will not be allowed citizenship. Should a middle class immigrant be denied citizenship based on the sole fact that he used obamacare tax credits?
                "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                - Benjamin Franklin

                The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                  The welfare states are basket cases so stop telling me how wonderful they are.

                  https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/7...bt-by-country/

                  As far as immigration goes most immigrants are not adding to productive capacity. If you at California the tech giants keep it afloat but they are mostly circus.

                  Fix the economy and national debt then talk to me about new programs.
                  I saw nothing in your link related to the issue we discuss. There is also a poor attempt to imply that all "welfare states" are identical and have debt problems. Sorry, but Germany and Canada are not Greece and Spain. You can see it in your link where Germany, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Australia, Denmark and others have lower debt that the US. If the Scandinavian "turbo socialists" have lower debt than you then your claim is not convincing.

                  Plus, if your idea of a "functional" country is to have 10% of the population uninsured or a nation in which life expectancy declines even among the middle-age white population (as is the case in the US in the last two years which is UNIQUE in the developed world), then I say that it is time to replace the current system with the socialized one and figure a way to pay the debt without screwing the lives of 10% of the population. A stop of senseless tax cuts and decrease of military spending can be a good start ...
                  Last edited by pamak; 10 Aug 18, 01:59.
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Doesn't everyone but Vets. and members of the senate and house get stuck with obamacare? It's a universal plague brought to us by the DNC. They own that debacle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV7dDSgbaQ0
                    Credo quia absurdum.


                    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Melania Trump's parents granted full US citizenship


                      ABC News VideosAugust 9, 2018

                      0:17

                      0:57

                      Melania Trump's parents granted full US citizenship

                      https://www.yahoo.com/news/melania-t...174820778.html
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The slightly lower debt of some European welfare states than the U.S. should be little comfort to anyone proposing that they are models we should aspire to. This is especially true considering the increase in debt during the Obama administration.

                        The U.S. has fallen behind in expanding it's welfare system in large part because of the tremendous expense of providing a military umbrella for the states mentioned. Just the cost of intervention in the middle east to protect European oil supplies would have bankrupted most of these countries. The U.S. does not need middle eastern oil but they do.

                        If you want a welfare state the first obligation is to devise a way to pay for it that doesn't kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
                        We hunt the hunters

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                          This isn't true, but I should have been more clear. The problem is if immigrants use Obamacare they will not be allowed citizenship. Should a middle class immigrant be denied citizenship based on the sole fact that he used obamacare tax credits?
                          It is true. My wife couldn't work legally until she got a green card. She could only do unpaid volunteer work until that time.
                          "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                            It is true. My wife couldn't work legally until she got a green card. She could only do unpaid volunteer work until that time.
                            I hear crazy stories about this, spouses having to wait 5 - 10 years until they can work in the States. Does not seem very welcoming policy...
                            Wisdom is personal

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                              Melania Trump's parents granted full US citizenship


                              ABC News VideosAugust 9, 2018

                              0:17

                              0:57

                              Melania Trump's parents granted full US citizenship

                              https://www.yahoo.com/news/melania-t...174820778.html
                              And Obama shielded his illegal grandparents. Your point?

                              Comment

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