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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tsar
    Forgetting the 17th amendment which allows the direct election of senators aren’t you?
    and this does not make the Senate a Democratic body when CA has as many senators as Hawaii. I assume we can agree on this right?
    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by pamak View Post

      and this does not make the Senate a Democratic body when CA has as many senators as Hawaii. I assume we can agree on this right?
      Since they no longer represent the common citizenry, it doesn't matter. You're now arguing about how many Democrats can dance on top of an illegal ballot box. No one cares. The military has an acronym for this situation - OBE - Overtaken By Events - meaning that events have rendered a particular issue completely completely meaningless in the context of the current reality.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by pamak View Post

        and this does not make the Senate a Democratic body when CA has as many senators as Hawaii. I assume we can agree on this right?

        Since the senate was never supposed to represent the people but rather the states equally it shouldn’t.

        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          Since they no longer represent the common citizenry, it doesn't matter. You're now arguing about how many Democrats can dance on top of an illegal ballot box. No one cares. The military has an acronym for this situation - OBE - Overtaken By Events - meaning that events have rendered a particular issue completely completely meaningless in the context of the current reality.
          The Senate by design never represented the majority of common citizenry. The idea was that in order to have the participation of smaller states in the republic of the United States, democracy had to give in...
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tsar View Post


            Since the senate was never supposed to represent the people but rather the states equally it shouldn’t.
            I do not disagree with that. But the result is still what I describe. As I said, in the previous post, in order to have the participation of smaller states in the republic of the United States, democracy had to give in...

            My remark is that the current system perhaps undermines democracy too much and is responsible for an actual tyranny of a minority. I am not saying that there should not be a non-democratically elected body like the Senate which protects smaller states against bigger ones. I am saying that one can think of other forms of republics with non-democratically elected Senates when democracy is more powerful . For example, republics where the president is elected by popular vote. or republics where the House has also a saying in the confirmation of judges, or republics when it is actually illegal to have partisan gerrymandering of congressional districts. Up until now, gerrymandering is illegal only if it targets protected classes like Blacks or other minorities, but gerrymandering that targets political opponents is still considered legal!
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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            • #21
              The UN wants to disarm every person in the world. Trump is pushing to federalize our entire police force. The world's elite are buying doomsday shelters in record numbers. Something big is definitely on the horizon.

              I just wish the American people could realize who the real enemy is, but I suspect they're too ignorant and too wrapped up in their identity politics to do so before it's too late.

              All good things must come to an end, we had a nice run.
              "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
              - Benjamin Franklin

              The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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              • #22
                I guess you Dem’s shouldn’t have invented gerrymandering if you are going to whine about it now.
                Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                • #23
                  Another matter to consider is that "majority rule" a.k.a. "mob" rule often disregards the Rights of minorities. We saw this in the SE USA post ACW when those states instituted segregation and "Jim Crow" Laws. It took near another century to rectify that with the Civil Rights movement.

                  Compromise between either side of the political fence (Right vs Left) isn't always a solution. Just look at the cobbled together solutions in our Constitution on the issue of Slave States versus non-Slave States and how that "compromise" eventually lead to the American Civil War (ACW). All too often "compromise" is a band-aid, not a fix.
                  TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                  • #24
                    This is why it will end up in a civil war:

                    There is a revolution on the Left. Democrats are bracing.
                    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp

                    The Democrat party has become the party of the Left. They aren't a "Left of Center" party any longer. Moderate Democrats are becoming as rare as hen's teeth.
                    The result will be an inflexible, intolerant, militant Democrat party that will increasingly be marginalized to Progressive Urban areas and university campuses where they have numbers. Outside those areas, they won't be tolerated for the most part. That will lead them to use "innovative" (read cheat or steal here) methods to win elections. Otherwise, they would remain the minority party and that will chaff them to no end.

                    The result will be an increasing gap between the Left and the Rest of US who will eventually get tired of their BS and a civil war will likely result.

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                    • #25
                      Is Trump to be considered a moderate republican? Both parties are moving further and further from center and eventually it will be impossible to coexist, if it isn't impossible already. But, what exactly is the downside of both sides getting the country they want?
                      Last edited by TactiKill J.; 21 Jul 18, 22:47.
                      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                      - Benjamin Franklin

                      The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        There will be a civil war because the Democrats and the liberals are being divisive and preventing any and all attempts to stop racism and violent behavior.

                        The remainder of America will not tolerate this for much longer, nor is there any reason why they should. We've put up with it long enough.
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                        • #27
                          Realistic or not, the vision of our Founders was a nation run and ruled by the "common man" as opposed to entrenched oligarchies and career "politicians". They were blazing virgin territory in human endeavors and enterprise and so can't be fully blamed for lack of foresight as to how human nature might pervert their intentions and designs.

                          It may have taken a while, but by at least a century ago we began to see the rise of the "career political" types and by a few decades ago they began to manifest in forms such as the 'Clinton-estas' and 'Obama-nations'. Two shining examples of the "career politico" amassing wealth and influence via the wealth redistribution systems and power linkages of professional politics. There do remain some citizen-politicos, but you find such mostly at the level of Local to State politics. By the time one moves into National Levels, "The System" has evolved such that one almost needs to be a "career politician" to get elected and hold an office.

                          Enter Donald Trump, from the outside of "the Beltway", a non-career "politician", closely espousing the "citizen participant" vision of our founders and he gained traction among those busy patching the slices in the inflated liferaft of our nation done by the "progressives". Admittedly far from a best or ideal choice, but as a few here have mentioned, too often it's a choice of whom will do the least damage(lessor of two "evils"). Given the realistic alternative "that might have been" and what we got stuck with to choose from, many of use are willing and trying to work with what we got until the next round shows possible alternates.

                          DJT was far from my personal "first choice" for POTUS in 2016, but he was the "Best" of the limited real field of whom might get elected. Unfortunately, over the past several decades, ever since the JFK-Nixon race of 1960, the election of POTUS has become more a popularity contest and "Whom is America's Favorite"~Likeable person rather than whom is the most competent CEO material to run the business of USA. Point here is even with mixed results, DJT showed some level of effective decision making in creating wealth and operating free-enterprise whereas HRC just showed capability to scam and scheme personal acquisition manipulating the political processes during the past few decades of her and partner WJC's "careers".

                          We dodged a worse bullet that we could have got stuck with. Admittedly not an ideal "bullet" or choice, bur of the two that were realistically viable and would happen, we have the "lessor of two evils". Better to work with what we have than try to foul the pot even more at this time.

                          (BTW, retrospect shows that BHO was far from an ideal alternate and far from best selection for the betterment of the nation. We didn't need a continuation of that/Him in self-destruct agenda via HRC.)
                          Last edited by G David Bock; 21 Jul 18, 20:52.
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                          • #28
                            What attempt to stop racism has there been from the conservatives? Refusing to listen to issues on race because it hurts your agenda and angers you is not an attempt at quelling racism or violent behavior.
                            "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                            - Benjamin Franklin

                            The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              A republic by definition is rule by elites. The question us what kind of elites.

                              The structure of the government under the U.S. constitution is intended to assure that the elites represent the people as a whole. The alternative is mob rule and the marginalization of minorities. Granted it has not lived up to the hopes vested in it on many occasions especially in relation to racism.

                              The common people will in most cases opt for a Caesar over a republic bogged down in political chaos. That is why men like FDR were almost father figures to the disenfranchised or how you get Hitler or Franco. People in general including the majority will vote their self interest not the long term interest of society regardless of social class which is why many pundits think the middle-class is vital.

                              Personally I don't see anyone from any class governing themselves in the Republican Roman concept of virtue these days. Most people hold the idea of virtue with considerable contempt believing that only the naive believe. Not only is God dead but so are most of the values that hold civilization together. I blame rhe intellectuals who in their arrogance thought they could formulate a better society out of nothing.
                              We hunt the hunters

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
                                Is Trump to be considered a moderate republican? Both parties are moving further and further from center and eventually it will be impossible to coexist, if it isn't impossible already. But, what exactly is the downside of both sides getting the country they want?
                                The downside to a true Right of Center nation is there is little in the way of a social safety net. The government won't be there to bail you out or coddle you when things go wrong. You are on your own in that respect. The up side is you succeed or fail on your own merits. You have to grow up and take responsibility for your actions and life. If you don't nobody's going to be there to do it for you. You can starve and it's your fault.

                                The downside to a Leftist nation is you lose your freedom. You live in a semi-police state to police state. The government controls stuff and confiscates most of what you make or earn. The upside is you can live like a child your entire life if you choose. You can have a "Peter Pan" existence. The government will feed, clothe, and shelter you. You never have to put in a hard day's work if you don't want to. In old age the government will provide for you.
                                The downside to all that is eventually the money will run out and the handouts will stop coming. Then you starve and it's your fault.

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