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  • The next American war will be ...for America.

    Republicans have rediscovered their Federalist roots. These roots include that 'common people' are ignorant and incapable of self-government. This idea of a 'democracy' is a myth left by FDR who started a string of nations down it's path. America however, is NOT a democracy; and I'm afraid this is reaching the stage where Victor Hugo would label it; 'an idea whose time has come.' There simply cannot be a democracy where one party is at it's core, anti-democratic. War is certainly a possibility. But secession is inevitable. Either the USA will have a democracy; or those who believe in the virtues of democracy will make a democracy.

  • #2
    Welcome back. As for your post, I don't know about that, but it's worth pointing out a recent Rasmussen Report polling that says 30% of Americans think a second Civil War is likely to happen in future. I fear that number will only increase as time progresses in which political climate worsens to the point where we will have to settle the matters with guns.
    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

    "Aim small, miss small."

    Comment


    • #3
      Only the rad right talks of armed conflict here.

      Are you sure which party he means when
      where one party is at it's core, anti-democratic.
      Now one party controls are three branches of government. That is't good for our country, regardless of which party controls all.
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Worth the ten minutes to view;

        The American form of government.
        According to this video, the way Americans view the American political system is flawed which can cause confusion.
        https://www.wimp.com/the-american-form-of-government/
        Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
        Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

        Comment


        • #5
          Had to go back about six pages to find this related thread;
          Has the next Civil War started?
          Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
          Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

          Comment


          • #6
            If you really want to see fireworks, let the Democrats have their way and we go to direct election of Presidents. That'd do the trick. The 85% of states all but dispossessed by that would be enraged. Half the population would realize that from that point forward, for the foreseeable future, California and New York would be the two overwhelmingly important states electing a president with another five (5) being large enough in population to be counted in as well. The rest of the country would be kicked to the curb.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
              Only the rad right talks of armed conflict here.

              Are you sure which party he means when

              Now one party controls are three branches of government. That is't good for our country, regardless of which party controls all.
              No, John. The far left is just as, or more guilty of this as well. Look at anti-fa as just one example. They have greater numbers and show up in force. They believe in achieving their goals by any means necessary.

              Most Americans really don't want to deal with this crap. We have our opinions, left or right, but for the most part follow the center path. We don't want to be forced to choose sides
              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

              Comment


              • #8
                No one familiar with history favors the tyranny of democracy. A republic is a half ass solution because it's an imperfect world. Both Teddy Roosevelt and FDR were progressives as much because they feared a Bolshevik revolution as any belief in the common people's ability to self govern. The Democratic party however has become the party of coastal elites that do not feel the Deplorables can self govern.

                The idea that it is only the common people who cannot self govern is absurd and ignores how many of the founding principles were directed at the inability of the rich and powerful to govern their excess. That there is a system of justice for people like the Clinton's and another for lowly service men is proof of those principles failure. The failure of the powers in Washington to accept the Trump presidency shows exactly how little concern their is within the elitist circles for representative government.

                Twisting things into there opposite is a kind of intellectual dishonesty all to common today but surprisingly effective.
                We hunt the hunters

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  If you really want to see fireworks, let the Democrats have their way and we go to direct election of Presidents. That'd do the trick. The 85% of states all but dispossessed by that would be enraged. Half the population would realize that from that point forward, for the foreseeable future, California and New York would be the two overwhelmingly important states electing a president with another five (5) being large enough in population to be counted in as well. The rest of the country would be kicked to the curb.
                  Do you support the dictate of minority then ?
                  There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                    No one familiar with history favors the tyranny of democracy. A republic is a half ass solution because it's an imperfect world. Both Teddy Roosevelt and FDR were progressives as much because they feared a Bolshevik revolution as any belief in the common people's ability to self govern. The Democratic party however has become the party of coastal elites that do not feel the Deplorables can self govern.

                    The idea that it is only the common people who cannot self govern is absurd and ignores how many of the founding principles were directed at the inability of the rich and powerful to govern their excess. That there is a system of justice for people like the Clinton's and another for lowly service men is proof of those principles failure. The failure of the powers in Washington to accept the Trump presidency shows exactly how little concern their is within the elitist circles for representative government.

                    Twisting things into there opposite is a kind of intellectual dishonesty all to common today but surprisingly effective.
                    I do not accept so easily such broad comments, or historical interpretations. This is not because that I do not accept the concept of the "tyranny of the majority". It is more because there are many different forms of democracy and forms of republics and I can easily see how the term "tyranny of the majority" can be used as a pretext to justify the tyranny of the minority in some republics, and this includes the US republic.

                    Take for example the three branches of the government: Executive, legislative, judiciary. The executive branch is led by a president who is not elected democratically. The legislative branch has two chambers and only one of them (House) is elected democratically. And in fact, even the latter is debatable considering the shameless gerrymandering which has produced results where the minority controls the House: See for example the following case

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...lections,_2012
                    United States House of Representatives elections, 2012
                    Republican Democratic
                    234 ............................seats 201...................... .......seats
                    58,228,253............. popular vote 59,645,531............... popular vote
                    47.6%...................... percentage 48.8%.........................percentage
                    [Edited for clarity]

                    And then you have the judicial branch whose composition is determined by the President and the Senate, so again by non-democratically elected institutions. One can certainly make the argument that we have established a tyranny of the minority which in fact is consistent with the original intentions of the Founding Fathers which never planned to have a majority of the population participate in the republic anyway.

                    On the other hand, it is undeniable that this political system correlates with the longest and most stable form of government in the modern western world. So one can certainly think of the principle that "if it work, do not try to fix it.," but on thee other hand it is far from being evident that this stability is more a result of a superior structure of the American Republic or a result of other factor not related to this particular form of republic. For example, the US had the luxury of providing hope for the poor and a relief valve for social tensions by expanding towards the west in lands with an abundance of resources (at the expense of weak native American nations). This could very well have been the reason why for centuries the US had never experienced the most destructive effects of bitter social tensions (communism) or the most destructive effects of wars that the Europeans experienced when they were competing among themselves for the control of more natural resources (at the expense of other colonial powers) or even for the control of more "living space" (lebensraum).
                    Last edited by pamak; 21 Jul 18, 17:44.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Emtos View Post

                      Do you support the dictate of minority then ?
                      No, I support the original idea of a Republic. The original Constitution separated power rather than concentrated it.

                      The House of Representatives represented The People and were elected by direct democratic vote within each district. The short term of service allowed representatives to change as the whim of the public changed.

                      The Senate represented the States. Senators were originally selected by either state legislatures, or more commonly, state governors. Their longer term gave them stability and they represented not The People, but rather the State they were chosen from.
                      This was done to give every state, large or small, equal representation in Congress.
                      The 17th Amendment making direct election of Senators turned the Senate into another House. That has wrecked the balance in Congress.

                      The Presidency was a combination of the two systems. The popular vote, by state, elected representatives to the electoral college. These representatives would then elect the President. This meant that even small population states had at least some clout in electing the President and the President wasn't being elected simply on the basis of the overall popular vote. That meant a few high population states couldn't dominate the process.

                      This isn't about a dictatorship of the minority. It was about separating power. It removed The People as the sole source of elected power and handed some of that to the States and some of it to elected representatives like the electoral college.

                      What the Democrats and Progressives (as if there's a difference any more) what is to concentrate all elective power in The Mob. That is an ultimate tyranny. A tyranny of the minority might win sometimes, but a Mob acting as the majority will become a dictatorship.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How can Trump who is dragging the Republican Party kicking and screaming towards what the mainstream media calls far right populism simultaneous be in favor of an elitist oligarchy. The Republicans who jumped on the bandwagon are busy trying to "drain the swamp" of elitist bureaucrats that apparently think they are above the electoral process if not the law.

                        This whole narrative is getting totally out of control. When I was growing up the rule was you didn't talk politics or religion in polite society. The anti intellectual sentiment reflected in that ethic is transparent but it does seem the American public has been poorly served by the intellectual class. No matter how noble the intentions were intellectual positions such as Tabula Rasa has destroyed large sections of the population's ability to work within a framework of evidence.

                        The "liberal" education system is a disaster.

                        Don't get me wrong here in thinking I admire the system of blind patriotism I was educated under. I'm only pointing out that the progressive movement has turned out in some respects to be a barrier to progress.
                        We hunt the hunters

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                          How can Trump who is dragging the Republican Party kicking and screaming towards what the mainstream media calls far right populism simultaneous be in favor of an elitist oligarchy. The Republicans who jumped on the bandwagon are busy trying to "drain the swamp" of elitist bureaucrats that apparently think they are above the electoral process if not the law.

                          This whole narrative is getting totally out of control. When I was growing up the rule was you didn't talk politics or religion in polite society. The anti intellectual sentiment reflected in that ethic is transparent but it does seem the American public has been poorly served by the intellectual class. No matter how noble the intentions were intellectual positions such as Tabula Rasa has destroyed large sections of the population's ability to work within a framework of evidence.

                          The "liberal" education system is a disaster.

                          Don't get me wrong here in thinking I admire the system of blind patriotism I was educated under. I'm only pointing out that the progressive movement has turned out in some respects to be a barrier to progress.
                          Populism is just a tool which has been used by people on both the right and the left, including dictators who claim they are for the common folks and fight against a corrupt elitist oligarchy of some kind - capitalist- Jewish, etc.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, it will. Some of us have been talking about a civil war for quite some time, so this is not a new concept by any mean.

                            I think we're only a year or two away from it at most, less of the Dems get their way.
                            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                              No, I support the original idea of a Republic. The original Constitution separated power rather than concentrated it.

                              The House of Representatives represented The People and were elected by direct democratic vote within each district. The short term of service allowed representatives to change as the whim of the public changed.

                              The Senate represented the States. Senators were originally selected by either state legislatures, or more commonly, state governors. Their longer term gave them stability and they represented not The People, but rather the State they were chosen from.
                              This was done to give every state, large or small, equal representation in Congress.
                              The 17th Amendment making direct election of Senators turned the Senate into another House. That has wrecked the balance in Congress.

                              The Presidency was a combination of the two systems. The popular vote, by state, elected representatives to the electoral college. These representatives would then elect the President. This meant that even small population states had at least some clout in electing the President and the President wasn't being elected simply on the basis of the overall popular vote. That meant a few high population states couldn't dominate the process.

                              This isn't about a dictatorship of the minority. It was about separating power. It removed The People as the sole source of elected power and handed some of that to the States and some of it to elected representatives like the electoral college.

                              What the Democrats and Progressives (as if there's a difference any more) what is to concentrate all elective power in The Mob. That is an ultimate tyranny. A tyranny of the minority might win sometimes, but a Mob acting as the majority will become a dictatorship.
                              Right now, America is ALL about a dictatorship by the minority. That is the very definition of the autocratic oligarchy which is now runnning the nation. "Representation" went out the window a very long time ago, and I doubt we will see it again in my lifetime or even yours.
                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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