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Did the Anti ICE group seriously consider the consequences of their demands?

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  • Did the Anti ICE group seriously consider the consequences of their demands?

    Iíve been watching this abolish ICE nonsense and this is another one of those moments when I find myself facepalming and wondering if these guys take even ten seconds to consider the real consequences of their emotionally fueled demands. Liberals like to declare themselves as humanitarian and against the forces of hate and oppression and I wonder if they know how often they blunder themselves straight into the hands of the people they claim to hate. Because if you truly value illegal immigrants, you shouldnít be against ICE. They arenít the enemy.
    Letís examine the consequences of abolishing border control programs. Fun fact, even if you value illegal immigrants more than American citizens, you are completely screwing them with a policy of no border patrol.

    First, many border crossers follow a plan of surrendering themselves to the first ICE agent they encounter. Crossing miles of desert is dangerous and they know that if you get taken into custody you can there claim asylum as well as get some much needed food and water. For many immigrants that ability to raise your hands to the first agent that drives up can be a lifesaver. Take that away and you now have several more miles of blazing hot frontier to cross before you get to civilization. Which means more dead immigrants.

    Now letís talk about those poor precious children. Specifically the unaccompanied minors being housed in camps you compare to Nazi Germany. Poor kids, right? Horrible that they donít have their freedom, right? Guess what, those camps are actually helping them have a shot at a decent life. First thereís the fact that those kids are getting schooling including ESL classes, vital for gaining employment. Second, they have shelter. They live in accommodations which are, at worst, about what an American kid would experience at summer camp. Boarding school at best. (And since I know at least one ignoramus will shriek about kids in cages - that was a few years ago when they streamed across en masse and overwhelmed ICE's ability to process them. I'm not laying that at the feet of Obama either. When you have a huge immigration surge with lots of people appearing at once you put people where you can. Since then proper facilities have been erected.) Guess what happens if you take all that away? They get booted to the street. No education. No protection. And theyíre all on their own. On the street runaways, group home graduates, and various other homeless youth are frequently exploited by pimps and gangs. And those kids have all the benefits of American citizenship, knowledge of English, and all protections therein. Disbanding border enforcement which would entail disbanding its attendant programs, would be sending these immigrant kids straight into the wolvesí teeth. In addition to human trafficking, they will also be preyed upon by sweatshop industries that employ illegals in frequently inhumane conditions.

    And letís talk about those human traffickers. Coyotes arenít in the business out of the goodness of their heart. They often rape, murder, and otherwise mistreat their charges. Even when thereís a chance of getting booted back home, often times an immigrant at the mercy of a coyote might welcome the sight of border patrol. They still get their shot at asking for asylum, the coyote gets cuffed, and they get out of the miserable traveling accommodations they are often shoehorned into. Kiss that goodbye with no border patrol.

    With borders now no longer having a serious law enforcement presence you can count on an increase in gang activity. This in turn can lead to citizens living on the border becoming increasingly aggressive in defending themselves. You guys used to be so worried about those Minutemen sitting in their lawn chairs and calling immigration when they spotted illegal border crossings. How worried are you if they step that up to actually taking shots at suspected cartel gangsters. And guess which law enforcement agency isnít there to stop them anymore? City cops have jurisdictions. With no border patrol you have no real law enforcement presence on what is essentially our frontier. That cuts both ways, for the rancher and immigrant the danger just went up.

    Hereís the thing. Whether you value border security or open borders, ICE is an institution you want to have. They are the first step toward sending an illegal home, but they are also the first step in getting asylum seekers into the system. They help protect citizens from dangerous gangs but they also provide a humanitarian response in the process of law enforcement. Donít like seeing kids in camps? Great, imagine them in feces filled trailers working for shady poultry farmers or working the streets for pimps. Does that make you feel better? Because those are your choices when a kid comes across the border all by his lonesome. And as for kids with illegal immigrant parents, they can be with their parents in the system or they can be shipped to a group home. If we turn them loose on the street theyíll get exploited too. So which do you prefer? Fun fact, getting rid of ICE wonít make that problem go away either.

    Bottom line, engage your brain before opening your protest holes, fellas. Your policies can be as detrimental for your concerns as they are to ours when you donít take time to think things through.

    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

  • #2
    The idea of abolishing ICE is just as stupid as the anti-FBI contingent on this forum.
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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    • #3
      Immigration is not a solution to what is wrong South of our border and makes it worse by releasing pressure on dysfunctional governments. ICE is probably the only law enforcement that isn't corrupt that many illegal immigrants will ever see. Law and order is precisely what is missing in the countries they are fleeing.

      We hunt the hunters

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Massena View Post
        The idea of abolishing ICE is just as stupid as the anti-FBI contingent on this forum.
        Or the anti-Trump fanatics...
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          Or the anti-Trump fanatics...
          Stupidity, ineptitude in government service, criminal activity, and ignorance should be opposed. That you support it by supporting Trump without question says much more about you than it does about those who criticize Trump. You're merely a dupe.
          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment


          • #6
            Aaaaand liberal strawman culture strikes again.

            Strawman and ad hominem fallacy for the count.
            A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
              Aaaaand liberal strawman culture strikes again.

              Strawman and ad hominem fallacy for the count.
              I find it sad that any American would not want to defend our border.
              Credo quia absurdum.


              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bwaha View Post

                I find it sad that any American would not want to defend our border.
                I find it deeply disturbing.
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                  Aaaaand liberal strawman culture strikes again.

                  Strawman and ad hominem fallacy for the count.
                  The liberal strawman culture is especially prominent among our conservative posters, who make and post about 99% of memes, what they think are memes, and what they think are logical fallacies(do you really yell "strawman" when discussing outside this forums?), in this forum.
                  Last edited by Karri; 01 Jul 18, 14:03.
                  Wisdom is personal

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Karri View Post

                    The liberal strawman culture is especially prominent among our conservative posters, who make and post about 99% of memes, what they think are memes, and what they think are logical fallacies(do you really yell "strawman" when discussing outside this forums?), in this forum.
                    No, but then I've never had to. I've yet to meet someone in my social circle vociferously insist that I never criticize Trump despite my having done so multiple times. That is a uniquely ACG experience.

                    The only solution I can offer you is this: if you're tired of being criticized for strawmanning then...wait for it...

                    STOP STRAWMANNING!

                    I don't know why you find it so hard to just argue what we actually stand for. Seriously, give it a try. Instead of hyperbolic nonsense just acknowledge what we actually believe and go from there. Trust me, it'll pay dividends.
                    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Karri View Post

                      The liberal strawman culture is especially prominent among our conservative posters, who make and post about 99% of memes, what they think are memes, and what they think are logical fallacies(do you really yell "strawman" when discussing outside this forums?), in this forum.
                      Do you know what a "strawman" argument is...?

                      The part of this directed at me is just whining about not being able to produce a cognit argument really.



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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                        Do you know what a "strawman" argument is...?
                        Usually any argument that you don't agree with or find to logical that it's impossible for you to refute. So, instead, you throw up little pictures. Sort of like Doc does when ever anyone brings up the Environment. Of course, he does with style. No one can match 80 slides that mean absolutely nothing, but go on for so long everyone forgot what the original argument was about. Maybe you'll grow up to be him someday.
                        Conservatives in the U.S. won't be happy until Jim Crow returns and "White Heterosexual Only" signs are legalized.

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                        • #13

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post

                            STOP STRAWMANNING!
                            I find it that people who are ranting tend to consider everything a strawman. What you are essentially saying "stop talking". Making this forum an echo-chamber is clearly a conservative ideal. So I guess you have to either stop ranting and shouting strawman, or keep things as they are.


                            I don't know why you find it so hard to just argue what we actually stand for. Seriously, give it a try. Instead of hyperbolic nonsense just acknowledge what we actually believe and go from there. Trust me, it'll pay dividends.
                            See, what you 'actually stand for' and what you 'actually believe' might just be two very different things(you know, just the way as you argue about everything deemed liberal/left).

                            Tell me, where does this thread derail?
                            Wisdom is personal

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Karri View Post

                              I find it that people who are ranting tend to consider everything a strawman. What you are essentially saying "stop talking". Making this forum an echo-chamber is clearly a conservative ideal. So I guess you have to either stop ranting and shouting strawman, or keep things as they are.




                              See, what you 'actually stand for' and what you 'actually believe' might just be two very different things(you know, just the way as you argue about everything deemed liberal/left).

                              Tell me, where does this thread derail?
                              Karri you're a laugh riot. In the process of complaining about being called out for strawmanning you engaged in even more strawmanning.

                              "What you are saying is stop talking."

                              No, what I said was stop strawmanning. If my insistence that you don't misrepresent my actual viewpoints constitutes a demand that you cease all speech then you have a problem. Are you saying that you NEED to strawman? Because that's the only way my request constitutes a demand for silence. Which then begs the question: Why is the emotional need to strawman so strong that the very act of not misrepresenting my beliefs would require you to refrain from all speech?

                              Or are you just overreacting?

                              "Making this forum an echo chamber is clearly a conservative ideal"

                              That no conservative has ever called for. Strawman #2. Again you have a question to answer: are you saying that your desire to never honestly address my beliefs is so overwhelming that the requirement that you do so would strip you of speech and thus turn this forum into an echo chamber?

                              Or are you overreacting?

                              If a call to honestly represent and debate my actual views sounds in your mind like a demand that you never speak at all, then essentially you're making my point about strawman culture. What's more, you're declaring it an addiction or permanent mental condition over which you have no control.

                              Or you're just overreacting. I'll always give you that.
                              A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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