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  • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    All 2%s are not created equal - Greece for example, apparently and logically, spends more, as does Poland but they can simply put their army on their national border and that makes sense.

    For Belgium to spend 2% a year, we'd have to deploy to insane places, or simply park an (undermanned for lack of recruits) armoured divison in the Ardennes.

    Not going to happen.

    There's another aspect as well - in upcoming years we'll be replacing fighter/bombers, minesweepers, frigates, buying drones and even in-flight refueling capabilities.

    In any one year any of those are paid, the Belgian defence budget will jump above 2%, in other years, obviously it will have to go down to be invested in other things.

    The price of a 35 fighters, for instance weighs much more on the budget of a small nation compared to a bigger one, nevertheless 35 Belgian planes, in the sense of power projection, are more useful to to NATO as 35 Polish ones who can't move.

    All these things are obvious to anyone with even an ounce of common sense.

    NATO is not a golf club where you pay a fee to be a member - it's an alliance.
    Unless you can prove an average of 2 percent, you are still posting nothing more than any other Euro apologist.
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

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    • Originally posted by Salinator View Post

      Unless you can prove an average of 2 percent, you are still posting nothing more than any other Euro apologist.
      We have not slightest intention to prove anything.

      Take it or shove it.
      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
      Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

        We have not slightest intention to prove anything.

        Take it or shove it.
        So your post was nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

        Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

        Prayers.

        BoRG

        http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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        • My post was a reply to Cambronne - I'll await his response.

          If he too considers it nothing but "smoke and mirrors", I'll draw my conclusions from that
          High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
          Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            All 2%s are not created equal - Greece for example, apparently and logically, spends more, as does Poland but they can simply put their army on their national border and that makes sense.

            Also their GDP is comparatively lower.

            For Belgium to spend 2% a year, we'd have to deploy to insane places, or simply park an (undermanned for lack of recruits) armoured divison in the Ardennes.

            Not going to happen.

            There's another aspect as well - in upcoming years we'll be replacing fighter/bombers, minesweepers, frigates, buying drones and even in-flight refueling capabilities.

            In any one year any of those are paid, the Belgian defence budget will jump above 2%, in other years, obviously it will have to go down to be invested in other things.

            The price of a 35 fighters, for instance weighs much more on the budget of a small nation compared to a bigger one, nevertheless 35 Belgian planes, in the sense of power projection, are more useful to to NATO than 35 Polish ones who can't move.

            All these things are obvious to anyone with even an ounce of common sense.

            NATO is not a golf club where you pay a fee to be a member - it's an Alliance where the total is supposed to be more than the sum of the parts.


            I think it is always a good idea to park an armored division in the Ardennes.

            Anyway, I accept that meeting the 2% goal might be completely unrealistic for Belgium.
            I cannot and do not disagree with anything you have said.
            Rather, my issue is with the politicians who apparently agreed to meet the 2% goal. They are the ones who should have shown a little more common sense before committing to a course of action they should have known wasn't possible.

            And I am not really taking issue with Belgium so much as the larger, wealthier states.
            I am not saying Trump is right to make this an issue or that it is possible, but rather that the NATO leaders made a committment (2%) and have since failed to follow through on it.
            That gives Trump (and previous US presidents) a right to call attention to the problem.
            Perhaps not exactly in the way he has done it, but he can still complain about it.

            I can't complain about Belgium too much. I have loved every minute I have been there.
            Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

            Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

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            • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post


              For Belgium to spend 2% a year, we'd have to deploy to insane places, or simply park an (undermanned for lack of recruits) armoured divison in the Ardennes.

              Not going to happen.

              There's another aspect as well - in upcoming years we'll be replacing fighter/bombers, minesweepers, frigates, buying drones and even in-flight refueling capabilities.

              .
              Thats the whole point isn't it...? If you don't deploy to "insane" places, someone else has to pick up the slack....Even if you don't agree to those places...then whats the point in spending monies to replace fights/bombers, mine sweeps and frigates..or even in flight fueling..Your never gonna use them...

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              • Well we do use them,

                please find below a map of where Belgian forces are deployed just at this moment.

                You'd think we are the bloody Roman empire.

                https://www.mil.be/nl/pagina/overzicht

                What we will NOT do however is spend twice as much money to do the same.

                Cambronne

                That's OK then, forgive for cutting this short, but really have to go now, cu later
                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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                • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                  Well we do use them,

                  please find below a map of where Belgian forces are deployed just at this moment.

                  You'd think we are the bloody Roman empire.

                  https://www.mil.be/nl/pagina/overzicht

                  What we will NOT do however is spend twice as much money to do the same.

                  Cambronne

                  That's OK then, forgive for cutting this short, but really have to go now, cu later
                  What the heck is your serviceman/women doin in Florida....??? Where's my rifle !!!!

                  OK, I do see what you mean tho.....

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                  • Originally posted by Darth Holliday View Post

                    By trying to get them to pay "Their fair share"..(Sound Familiar)...and keeping your taxes dollars at home and not in Brussels.....but of course you already knew that....Ill give you kudos for not posting a link....
                    The agreement was reached in 2014 that the NATO members would have their defense expenditures up to 2% by 2024. US tax dollars do not go to Brussels, but to the Defense Department to support US troops in NATO. NATO is the US's alliance and it has prevented war in Europe since its founding in 1947. There is no 'defense fund' that the allies pay into and NATO countries do not owe the US any money, as we haven't given them any for NATO. The contribution goes to US forces and defense in the alliance.

                    Trump's press conference yesterday was absolute nonsense and no one agreed to go to 4% defense expenditures. Trump takes 'big and tough' in public, but does not one-on-one which clearly demonstrates that he is both a blowhard and a moral coward.
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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                    • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                      The agreement was reached in 2014 that the NATO members would have their defense expenditures up to 2% by 2024. US tax dollars do not go to Brussels, but to the Defense Department to support US troops in NATO. NATO is the US's alliance and it has prevented war in Europe since its founding in 1947. There is no 'defense fund' that the allies pay into and NATO countries do not owe the US any money, as we haven't given them any for NATO. The contribution goes to US forces and defense in the alliance.

                      Trump's press conference yesterday was absolute nonsense and no one agreed to go to 4% defense expenditures. Trump takes 'big and tough' in public, but does not one-on-one which clearly demonstrates that he is both a blowhard and a moral coward.
                      We all know there is no pie of monies and it doesn't go directly to Brussels, but hell it does have a nice complex and how many employees ...?? The increase has been asked diplomatically for how long, how many presidents...Perhaps the undiplomatic approach was called for, and it worked...Who is the blow hard and coward...??

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                      • Belgian military strength is 32000,but it will go down the next years,strength of the ground forces is 12000 men;with a lot of luck, if there is a crisis, Belgian would have ONE operational batallion .

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                        • Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final



                          sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone.

                          It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
                          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                          • Originally posted by Darth Holliday View Post

                            We all know there is no pie of monies and it doesn't go directly to Brussels, but hell it does have a nice complex and how many employees ...?? The increase has been asked diplomatically for how long, how many presidents...Perhaps the undiplomatic approach was called for, and it worked...Who is the blow hard and coward...??
                            Perhaps on this forum. But Trump certainly doesn't either know or understand it, if we can believe what he said at the news conference at the end of the NATO summit.
                            We are not now that strength which in old days
                            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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                            • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                              Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final







                              sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone.

                              It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
                              You show one more example that TAG's approach of comparing the modern left and right to Nazi's has to ignore: meaning the lack of empathy you see in modern conservatives' ideology which reaches the point of contempt for the weak and of worshiping the strong. This is why you see many posters here adulating Trump no matter what he does. It is difficult to imagine Nazi's having any connection with the modern bleeding heart modern democrats wearing pussyhats, even when the latter are often vegans or believe in animal rights or in big government.

                              IKE today would be considered a RINO which shows how radical the right has become...
                              Last edited by pamak; 13 Jul 18, 17:06.
                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                              • Veganism/animal preservation/environmentalism was a subculture in Volkisch movement and existed in the same sphere as the genocidal "Blood and Soil" doctrine.

                                the vegan ideas from the movement were the ones that reached (most famously) Hitler.
                                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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