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  • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

    Well, those Nations certainly feel threatened.

    I hope you are aware that your comment that they will be threatened if they don't do as the Russians dictate kind of proves my point.
    So thank you.
    It doesn't prove your point. If you're threatened because of your stupid policies, it's you fault. Finland doesn't feel threatened nor let's say Bielorussia or Kazakhstan. So the problem is not on Russian side but on the side of those countries.
    There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Massena View Post

      No, he was a right wing demagogue. The Communists were the leftists, not the Nazis. Why else do you believe they were at each others' throats?
      Hahaha, the quality of the DS arguments is decreasing with every post .FDR and Churchill were also at Hitler's throat, thus that means that Winston was a leftwinger ??

      Comment


      • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        For the Nazi's to be on the Right they'd have to do stuff like:

        Allow freedom of assembly, speech, and religion with the minimum of government interference.
        Allow land ownership, and that includes foreign land ownership.
        Encourage a free market and capitalism without government interference.
        Promote the individual over the group or society
        Eschew the welfare state
        Allow freedom of choice in education, health care, and other decisions.
        Allow businesses to fail rather than step in and prop them up.

        Basically, there isn't anything the Nazis were doing that fits a model of government by the Right.

        Racism isn't a Right-Left issue. It is something any government or society can decide to do or not do as part of its social norms. So, the US can be Right of Center in governance while being racist to Blacks and Asians as it was in the 30's and 40's. The Nazis can be Leftists and equally be racist to Jews, gypsies, and people from Eastern Europe.

        The counter arguments so far for the Nazis being on the Right point to no specifics that indicate they were.
        Racism is not confined to the right: well-known liberals as FDR, H.Black, Dr Schweitzer, Ghandhi,..were racists and also Marx and Engels . And Corbyn, and LBJ, etc,etc,and Bill ,and Hillary,......and ....Bill Kristol , and .....Kevin Williamson who said that white working communities deserve to die .
        It is a good thing for Buckley to be dead, to not to see how DS is overtaking The National Review.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Emtos View Post

          You read the whole post. Nomenklatura and all the elites in other Communist countries are the old elites reborn. They used the ideas of Communism for their own gain. A Soviet joke about that: " Brezhnev's mother comes in Kremlin. She looks around and says to him: you're living like a tsar now. Yes mom, replies Brezhnev. She starts to cry and says: what if bolcheviks come again ?".
          Funny! Your reply seems to imply agreement by example. There will always be people who rise to the top (elites) and work to gain--is that not self-interest. Can you give an example of any communist regime that did not pursue their own gain? I choose communist regimes because they proclaim an ideology that has not proven doable in history. And one can look at all the regimes in history and find the self interest. The history record on democracies is not good either--once the populace begin to appropriate benefits to themselves, it falls. Isn't human nature self-interest based on Maslov's hierarchy of needs?
          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post

            Funny! Your reply seems to imply agreement by example. There will always be people who rise to the top (elites) and work to gain--is that not self-interest. Can you give an example of any communist regime that did not pursue their own gain? I choose communist regimes because they proclaim an ideology that has not proven doable in history. And one can look at all the regimes in history and find the self interest. The history record on democracies is not good either--once the populace begin to appropriate benefits to themselves, it falls. Isn't human nature self-interest based on Maslov's hierarchy of needs?
            To start with, there was any communist regime in history. There were always errors on different levels. As I said, one of reasons for those errors was the low level of developpment of countries who tried communism. Communism requires an evolution of society that wasn't reached yet, when the defaults of human nature could be effectively aborted before they can damage the community.
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Emtos View Post

              It doesn't prove your point. If you're threatened because of your stupid policies, it's you fault. Finland doesn't feel threatened nor let's say Bielorussia or Kazakhstan. So the problem is not on Russian side but on the side of those countries.


              Your comments remind me much about blaming the rape on the woman for dressing provocatively.
              Either way, I think I have made my point.
              Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

              Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post



                Your comments remind me much about blaming the rape on the woman for dressing provocatively.
                Either way, I think I have made my point.
                You didn't.
                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                Comment


                • Trump's conduct at the NATO summit was deplorable as well as malicious:

                  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp

                  Trump once again either lied or greatly exaggerated about issues at the summit:

                  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartanntp

                  I have doubts that Trump can tell reality from fantasy:

                  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/12/polit...018/index.html

                  This analysis is telling:

                  https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...sot-ac-vpx.cnn

                  The Western Alliance is the greatest military alliance in history and Trump's attitude, threats, bullying and general conduct towards our allies puts the US in danger.
                  We are not now that strength which in old days
                  Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                  Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                  To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                  Comment


                  • Do you think providing links to completely partisan news outlets actually helps your debate...?? How about some links (if you must) from news outlets whose anchors/reporters/entertainers didn't cry when they realized Clinton lost the election...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darth Holliday View Post
                      Do you think providing links to completely partisan news outlets actually helps your debate...?? How about some links (if you must) from news outlets whose anchors/reporters/entertainers didn't cry when they realized Clinton lost the election...
                      If you disagree, then post something that either proves or disproves your point.
                      We are not now that strength which in old days
                      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                        If you disagree, then post something that either proves or disproves your point.
                        I don't have to do either...I asked, you answered in typical form....Your a good parrot and share the same credibility as your source(s), with the same agenda...Thanks...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          For the Nazi's to be on the Right they'd have to do stuff like:

                          Allow freedom of assembly, speech, and religion with the minimum of government interference.
                          Allow land ownership, and that includes foreign land ownership.
                          Encourage a free market and capitalism without government interference.
                          Promote the individual over the group or society
                          Eschew the welfare state
                          Allow freedom of choice in education, health care, and other decisions.
                          Allow businesses to fail rather than step in and prop them up.

                          Basically, there isn't anything the Nazis were doing that fits a model of government by the Right.

                          Racism isn't a Right-Left issue. It is something any government or society can decide to do or not do as part of its social norms. So, the US can be Right of Center in governance while being racist to Blacks and Asians as it was in the 30's and 40's. The Nazis can be Leftists and equally be racist to Jews, gypsies, and people from Eastern Europe.

                          The counter arguments so far for the Nazis being on the Right point to no specifics that indicate they were.
                          It does not make much sense to associate modern leftists with Nazi just because the Nazi supported certain policies. Having the Nazi support a welfare state or public education and healthcare is like trying to argue that their pro-military, anti-gay and anti-communist policies are proof to classify them together with the modern republican right. It does not work that way. When one makes comparisons, he should also see the differences between extremists like Nazi's or Stalinists and moderates on the right and on the left. If we do not see such differences, we can as well argue that dogs are cats because they are both mammals.


                          Nor is it that easy to argue that freedom of choice and individualism is a characteristic of the right. Monarchists are part of the right and anarchists put individual rights above any government. Thus, the distinction between the right and left cannot be accomplished with lists like the one you provided or the list I provided as a counterexample to show the problem with your line of thinking. It is obvious that there is a political spectrum of ideologies in which the extreme part of the right or left wing offers different degrees of freedoms (usually less) compared to more mainstream ideologies, although I mentioned examples when extreme ideologies on both sides may even support more freedom compared to other mainstream ideologies (anarchists and libertarians with respect to individual freedom from the government's restrictions).

                          So, with such confusing picture, how does one make the distinction between the left and the right?
                          To me, I will use history as a guide. I do not know the details of political science, but I do recall that the term "right" and "left" came from the French Revolution

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E...tical_spectrum

                          The terms "left" and "right" appeared during the French Revolution of 1789 when members of the National Assembly divided into supporters of the king to the president's right and supporters of the revolution to his left.

                          And from a historical perspective, I see that the right and left can be accurately defined according to how they interpreter the "equality" part of the French motto "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity." The left spectrum is associated with those forces which see equality in economic terms and try to to reduce it . The extreme part of that spectrum includes ideologies in which inequality is basically illegal (communism). On the other hand, the right sees inequality as an unavoidable and necessary part of our societies, coming as a result of a divine will ( monarchists and the old right), or as a result of the human nature which creates inequality among people of different skills in an environment of equality (supposedly) of opportunities (capitalists and modern right).

                          It is from this perspective that the Nazi ideology belongs to the right wing spectrum because unlike the leftist communist ideology, the Nazi's did not question inequality and certainly never aimed at the elimination of social classes. On the contrary, they wanted a very rigid and hierarchical socioeconomic structure in which a powerful state would make sure that everything runs smoothly and there will be no social unrest among the different classes.
                          Last edited by pamak; 13 Jul 18, 03:34.
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                          Comment


                          • Sure it does. The modern Left, like those before them, want:

                            Big government
                            Centralized control of the economy
                            A massive social-welfare state
                            Wealth redistribution
                            Heavy dependence on public transportation
                            Government control of most public institutions such as the transit system, education, medicine, etc.
                            Putting society ahead of the individual

                            When you throw in:

                            Animal rights
                            Banning smoking and other vices they see as evil
                            Veganism
                            Environmentalism, particularly the more radical versions

                            You get all the stuff the Nazis wanted.

                            In short, they want the same sort of Dictatorship of Virtue the Nazis wanted, only their set of "virtues" is different today.

                            On racism, the Left still practices that. They've just changed who the target is. White Privilege? Racist. Ethnic Studies? Racist. Women's Studies? Sexist that's a short list.

                            Even the so-called Antifa, are nothing short of fascist thugs of our time. Are you really naïve enough to believe that if the Left could get and retain power and control by violence and warfare that they'd pass on doing that? The Left would jump at the opportunity to impose their system on everyone at the end of a gun barrel.

                            Their opposition to things like the 2nd Amendment, and controls on police extend only to efforts to remove effective opposition to their gaining power. They no more want guns removed to end violence than some NRA member. They want guns confiscated to eliminate a threat to their gaining power.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              Sure it does. The modern Left, like those before them, want:

                              Big government
                              Centralized control of the economy
                              A massive social-welfare state
                              Wealth redistribution
                              Heavy dependence on public transportation
                              Government control of most public institutions such as the transit system, education, medicine, etc.
                              Putting society ahead of the individual

                              When you throw in:

                              Animal rights
                              Banning smoking and other vices they see as evil
                              Veganism
                              Environmentalism, particularly the more radical versions

                              You get all the stuff the Nazis wanted.

                              In short, they want the same sort of Dictatorship of Virtue the Nazis wanted, only their set of "virtues" is different today.

                              On racism, the Left still practices that. They've just changed who the target is. White Privilege? Racist. Ethnic Studies? Racist. Women's Studies? Sexist that's a short list.

                              Even the so-called Antifa, are nothing short of fascist thugs of our time. Are you really naïve enough to believe that if the Left could get and retain power and control by violence and warfare that they'd pass on doing that? The Left would jump at the opportunity to impose their system on everyone at the end of a gun barrel.

                              Their opposition to things like the 2nd Amendment, and controls on police extend only to efforts to remove effective opposition to their gaining power. They no more want guns removed to end violence than some NRA member. They want guns confiscated to eliminate a threat to their gaining power.
                              I explained why your approach is very simplistic,

                              One can also say that the Nazis

                              Did not encourage immigration,

                              Defined very narrowly the German ethnic identity,

                              Supported infrastructure, and road building

                              Supported heavy industry

                              Supported big military expenses,

                              Thought gays were immoral


                              Now if you add to the above

                              their pro-gun culture

                              their youth organizations,

                              their Christian religion

                              and the fact that Hitler had a dog (sarcasm intended),


                              you can associate Nazi's with every Trump supporter who has some of the above characteristics or beliefs. I gave you in my previous post why your line of reasoning is wrong and why the Nazi's are part of the right and I saw zero attempt to address the points I made there. You just repeat the same reasoning.

















                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Sure it does. The modern Left, like those before them, want:

                                Big government
                                Nope

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Centralized control of the economy
                                Nope. Economy just should work for the interest of society, not the other way around.

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                A massive social-welfare state
                                Nope

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Wealth redistribution
                                You cannot redistirbute something that belong to other people in first place.

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Heavy dependence on public transportation
                                Logic

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Government control of most public institutions such as the transit system, education, medicine, etc.
                                Logic

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Putting society ahead of the individual
                                Nope

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Animal rights
                                What's wrong with that ?


                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Banning smoking and other vices they see as evil
                                What's wrong with that ?

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Veganism
                                Nope

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                Environmentalism, particularly the more radical versions
                                What's wrong with that ?

                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                You get all the stuff the Nazis wanted.
                                Actuallly they wanted few things listed above. The wanted first of all a pure Aryan race.

                                Btw, how does the perfect Right looks then according to you ? Feudalism in a wasteland is the more likely outcome.

                                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                                Comment

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