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  • At least the Senate is paying attention:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/10/polit...ump/index.html
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

    Comment


    • This is a shame. We were in the UK last summer and the British were both very welcoming and a lot of fun. Trump is making an ass of himself (again).

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartandhp
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Massena View Post
        This is a shame. We were in the UK last summer and the British were both very welcoming and a lot of fun. Trump is making an ass of himself (again).

        https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartandhp
        Wrong. The "asses" will be the Left in England who riot anytime any politician of note that isn't a Leftist shows up there. If there's anything the Left loves, it's a good violent riot.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pamak View Post

          And I am saying that when one makes decisions regarding if he should increase or not his budget, he also takes in consideration the military capabilities of the adversary and the potential threat he has to confront. And even if Germany has a very low readiness, I doubt that it needs to almost double its military expenditures in order to improve the availability of its submarines or airplanes, but I will agree with you that if they have zero available submarines on patrol, they must take measures to correct this. Still, regarding the big picture, the bottom line is that since you (I mean the US) demand that the EU should increase its military budget, such demand must be backed up with real data to compare the quality and quantity (including availability) of the Russian armed forces compared to that of the EU members (or compared to that of the NATO members-excluding the US).


          Hearing that the Germans have outdated equipment does not by itself reveal much. Russians also have outdated equipment, and if I remember well, the last airplane they lost to the Turkish AA defense was a SU-24 which despite its age as an aircraft design, it participated in combat operations (and after double checking it, I saw that I was right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_R...u-24_shootdown). As long as I do not see hard data to make comparisons, the whole demand of increasing military expenses does not convince me. And if you, as a professional who knows where to look to find such data do not provide such details, I am not going to spend my short time vacation comprising a list of the capability of 25 plus countries in the EU or NATO and compare the results to that of Russia according to whatever information we have about them. Do not you think it is a little bit unfair to ask me to start such project so that I can be convinced that the American claims are correct? Anyway, Greece at least will continue to spend a lot of money. The US Congress approved the sale of the F-35 to the Turks from what I heard.
          Nope. If they want to stay safe, they have to take up the burden of paying for it, or they don;t, in which case they will be easy pickings like the Ukraine and the Crimea, It's a huge gamble for the NATO nations to remain at their former low levels of defense spending when America was waiting right there to rush in on their behalf.

          Will they chance being vulnerable? Who knows? And as far as America is concerned, who cares? We've carried the burden for far too long.

          BTW - the equipment on hand does not equal "capability", which is based on multiple factors including training and motivation. The NATO nations gut used to the golden days of the Cold War when America did everything for them and they only had to put up a token showing. Those days are over.

          Meanwhile, I wouldn't read too much into the Russians using Su-24's, since America still flies Warthogs, and the B-52 is now twice as old as most of its pilots. A good design lasts a long time, and losing an older design is far less expensive than losing one of these brand new aircraft with a humongous price tag.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

          Comment


          • Angela Merkel answers Trump's false accusations. Unfortunately, he doesn't listen to anyone but himself.

            https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartandhp
            We are not now that strength which in old days
            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

            Comment


            • The NATO nations gut used to the golden days of the Cold War when America did everything for them and they only had to put up a token showing Delusional Bull, crap. Germany provided the LARGEST ground force in NATO through the later stages of the Cold War.

              Are you sure you were ever stationed in Europe? I ask because a long time ago you questioned, snarky, when I claimed my suits and jackets were English tailor made. Anybody that went into a PX/BX since 65 would know that English tailor made is in the PX with Alexander of London. CP even questioned you. Remember?.
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

              Comment


              • Here's a comparison of the contributions to NATO:

                https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/11/europ...ntl/index.html

                The United States has dropped in the last few years...
                We are not now that strength which in old days
                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                Comment


                • As Trump targets trade, a Chinese factory says it's been hired to make flags for Trump's 2020 campaign

                  https://www.businessinsider.de/chine...18-7?r=US&IR=T

                  MAGA, you've been con from start to finish.


                  "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                  Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                  you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                    Wrong. The "asses" will be the Left in England who riot anytime any politician of note that isn't a Leftist shows up there. If there's anything the Left loves, it's a good violent riot.
                    The left as you call them started the American and French Revolutions. Good or Bad? Or would you still rather have some king or queen to bow down to?
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                      The left as you call them started the American and French Revolutions. Good or Bad? Or would you still rather have some king or queen to bow down to?
                      The Left started the French revolution, but not the American one. The American one was started by what today might be termed Independents and Right of Center, Centrists. The principals in the American revolution were all upper middle and upper class men of means. They didn't espouse Leftist beliefs. After winning, they didn't go on the typical excesses the Left does when they get control. Businessmen, not the mob, were responsible for the American revolution.

                      Look at the French Revolution and The Terror of Paris. The Leftist revolutionaries there began murdering everyone they thought opposed them. They formed the Paris Commune. The whole of the revolution in France ended in a rampage of excess that resulted in a dictatorship (eg., Napoleon, who became "Emperor.")

                      If anything the leaders of the American revolution were well Right of Center in wanting to put every restraint on government they could. They wanted no part of having a strong, big, central government. They wanted control to be as local as possible.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        Nope. If they want to stay safe, they have to take up the burden of paying for it, or they don;t, in which case they will be easy pickings like the Ukraine and the Crimea, It's a huge gamble for the NATO nations to remain at their former low levels of defense spending when America was waiting right there to rush in on their behalf.

                        Will they chance being vulnerable? Who knows? And as far as America is concerned, who cares? We've carried the burden for far too long.

                        BTW - the equipment on hand does not equal "capability", which is based on multiple factors including training and motivation. The NATO nations gut used to the golden days of the Cold War when America did everything for them and they only had to put up a token showing. Those days are over.

                        Meanwhile, I wouldn't read too much into the Russians using Su-24's, since America still flies Warthogs, and the B-52 is now twice as old as most of its pilots. A good design lasts a long time, and losing an older design is far less expensive than losing one of these brand new aircraft with a humongous price tag.
                        And as long as you do not bring information to deduce and compare military capabilities, there is no reason to accept your fear that under the current situation the Europeans are like Crimea or Ukraine. I have not seen anything to suggest that the Russians are more capable (and I include training and motivation) than the Europeans. The Russians still count on conscripts for a big part of their army. And I do not see why they would have any motivation to start a war with the EU. Trying to equate the military capabilities of Crimea and Ukraine to that of the EU to argue that the EU can have their fate, does not make sense. Nor does it make sense to equate the motivation of Russians to go to such places where there is a big presence of Russian minorities to the motivation the Russians will have to attack the EU. And yes, the Americans do use older designs, and just like Armstrong argued for the older German equipment, there are similar arguments that such American airplanes are outdated and should be replaced since upgrading very old designs does have limitations (as for example in the case of metal fatigue) . My point was not that Germany or the US does not have such older designs. My point was that without bringing information to make comparisons, saying that Germany or anybody else has old equipment does not tell me much.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          The NATO nations gut used to the golden days of the Cold War when America did everything for them and they only had to put up a token showing Delusional Bull, crap. Germany provided the LARGEST ground force in NATO through the later stages of the Cold War.

                          Are you sure you were ever stationed in Europe? I ask because a long time ago you questioned, snarky, when I claimed my suits and jackets were English tailor made. Anybody that went into a PX/BX since 65 would know that English tailor made is in the PX with Alexander of London. CP even questioned you. Remember?.
                          Yeah, I saw a number of those German units. Brand new equipment which they took out once a month and drove in the same area we test drove our tracks, before we took ours to the field for 50% of our training cycles. Once again, having a large force means zip unless the training and the will is there, and neither were during the 70's. Germany was opposed to conscription, military service was not popular since no one made any money that way, and the Germans were materialistic all the way, and their military plans were as bad as ours.

                          Example: we were partnered with the local German Pioneer outfit. While enjoying a social evening with their officers, I found out that their primary mission was to immediately destroy the bridges over the Rhine, railway and vehicular, the moment the balloon went up. It so happens that two of the 8th ID's brigades were at that time south of the Rhine River - including my 1st Brigade - and would be stranded on the wrong side when most needed, not to mention the huge volume of refugee traffic heading south, but now going nowhere. A shrug of the shoulders and the standard German excuse for everything: "zum befehl"..."we follow our orders". What about the two brigades on the wrong side of the river? Turns out that P*** Poor Prior Planning on our part did not constitute a problem on their part. When I mentioned this little difficulty to our S3, he got a stunned look inhis eyes and rushed off, leaving me wondering if anybody in Europe ever talked to anybody else. Then I was tasked to write the Medical Annex to the Ground Defense Plan and found out that the answer was NO. Man, what a fecal tornado that generated, but I got to meet a lot of high ranking people when my Annex was circulated! I borrowed the German doctrine and adopted it to our needs, and it actually angered our host nation. Hard to believe, huh? Another story for another time.

                          To answer your other question, I was Battalion Medical Officer (PA) for 2/28th Mech Inf, 1st Brigade, 8th ID for five straight years, so yes, I was there. Went through five battalion commanders during that same period, giving you some idea of the ticket-punching chaos that was so common during that period.

                          And I bought my English clothing in England, since I was married to a Brit at the time, but in Germany I wore German clothing when off duty. It went over a lot better with the locals and I lived on the economy and had a fair command of the language. (Incidentally, I was the only officer on the battalion staff that spoke any German at all...nice planning, huh? However, the Wiesbaden Exchange, which swerved our Brigade, , did NOT carry English clothing to begin with. Just the usual American stuff that the troops and dependents were used to. You hung out with a better class of troops than I did. But your English threads do not make you much of an expert on USAREUR during the Cold War...just makes you sound like a full blown REMF.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                          Comment


                          • And something else: If I want to see a military comparison to convince me that there are valid military reasons to increase such spending, it is because I cannot ignore the economic and social cost of increased military spending. In one of the documents I already posted with the American country study for Greece, I read that the GDP percentage that went for military expenses was actually somewhere between 5 and 6%, and this continued even after the end of the cold war (since from the Greek perspective nothing changed with respect ti the national threat). I assume it was at some point during that period when Germany was reducing expenses and Greece kept them at colder level when a point was reached when the Greek tank fleet became actually larger than the German one (and iIIRC the latter did not incorporate any soviet tank equipment from Eastern Germany). I wonder what would have been the situation if Greece could reduce its military spending by say 2 percent annually in the 90's and 2000's and use this money to serve its national debt instead of accepting the deficits it did during that period. I do not know if it could avoid the economic crisis, but for sure the economic situation would be wayyyyy better than the current situation
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • Note to Half Pint: Go check out OAN News - Trump is telling the Germans they aren't meeting their NATO commitments. Supposed to spend 2% GDP on defense - spend 1.5% or less. Had 250,000 troops, a lot of them conscripts, stopped conscription in 2010 and now have only around 160,000 troop strength.

                              Like I said many times - Germany's heart just isn't in the game, and the price of freedom is high.
                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                                And something else: If I want to see a military comparison to convince me that there are valid military reasons to increase such spending, it is because I cannot ignore the economic and social cost of increased military spending. In one of the documents I already posted with the American country study for Greece, I read that the GDP percentage that went for military expenses was actually somewhere between 5 and 6%, and this continued even after the end of the cold war (since from the Greek perspective nothing changed with respect ti the national threat). I assume it was at some point during that period when Germany was reducing expenses and Greece kept them at colder level when a point was reached when the Greek tank fleet became actually larger than the German one (and iIIRC the latter did not incorporate any soviet tank equipment from Eastern Germany). I wonder what would have been the situation if Greece could reduce its military spending by say 2 percent annually in the 90's and 2000's and use this money to serve its national debt instead of accepting the deficits it did during that period. I do not know if it could avoid the economic crisis, but for sure the economic situation would be wayyyyy better than the current situation
                                Probably, but who makes up the difference in NATO defense spending? America...again?

                                Freedom isn't "free". If you want to be free, you must pay the price, because there is no such thing as a free lunch.
                                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                                Comment

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