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  • Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
    What is shameful is these countries beat leading (?) European countries:
    Why ? Those are the countries that actually face threats - isn't it obvious they should spend more on defence ?

    In addition 2% of a small GNP is less that 2% of an unnaturally high GNP like ours, if we truly spent 2% a year we'd have to keep an aircraft carrier or something...
    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
    Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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    • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

      Why ? Those are the countries that actually face threats - isn't it obvious they should spend more on defence ?

      In addition 2% of a small GNP is less that 2% of an unnaturally high GNP like ours, if we truly spent 2% a year we'd have to keep an aircraft carrier or something...
      A really really tiny aircraft carrier.
      Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

      Prayers.

      BoRG

      http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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      • Wel Belgium had a 493,909M.$ in 2017, 2% of that is eh, just under 10 billion a year ?

        Exactly how much does one of your smaller types cost ?


        Percentages are a tricky thing when applied without thinking.
        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
        Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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        • For those interested in the details of NATO defense expenditures, see https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2...2018-16-en.pdf.

          The Europeans generally miss the political significance of the 2%. While the 2% is probably not the best measure, it, for now, is a good working measure for apportionment. It will be interesting to see if we will draw back closer to 2% and the members reaction.
          Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post

            Greece is one of the five who does pay their share, and as you point out it is above 2%--it's an admirable 2.38% given their recent economic woes. US is 3.61%. Since the agreement was in 2006, 12 years later we have the following NATO members at the following rates:
            France 1.78
            Germany 1.19 (Merkle claims Germany will work to raise theirs to 1.5)
            Denmark 1.17
            Netherlands 1.17
            Italy 1.11
            Canada .99

            What is shameful is these countries beat leading (?) European countries:
            Turkey 1.56
            Norway 1.54
            Lithuania 1.49
            Romania 1.48
            Latvia 1.45
            Portugal 1.38
            Bulgaria 1.35
            Croatia 1.23
            Albania 1.21

            Trump can read a spread sheet.
            Yes, but this is not because the Greeks have an admirable morality compared to the other socialist Europeans. It is because they face an adversary with a population about 8 times larger than Greece, armed with about the same weapon systems (so we do not have any qualitative advantage) who questions the Greek control in the Aegean sea and who invaded Cyprus in 1974 (condemned by the UN SC) unopposed by any NATO forces or US aircraft carriers forcing Greece to undertake mostly symbolic missions to defend Cyprus by sending a few troops from my sister unit in Maleme Crete (about 550 air miles away from Cyprus) on board a dozen of old Noratlas with a **** poor plan and without a single fighter for escort (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Niki)

            Had Greece been Belgium or Germany, I would have LOVED to see the Greek defense budget go down to 1% of the GDP and use the rest of the GDP to help the younger Greek generations which are the one who pay now more than anybody else the effects of the economic crisis as a result of the mistakes of the PREVIOUS Greek generations.

            The point is that as long as I do not see a conventional superiority of the Russian forces compared to that the EU can gather even under the current budget, I cannot see why the EU countries should increase their defense budget. I do understand that certain countries (for example Baltics) sense a threat from a giant being next to them, and there has been a history of confrontations between Russia and these neighbor states. But the solution to this problem should not be the surrounding of Russia with antiballistic defense missiles and NATO bases. The solution is to have these countries follow Finland's example. Finland is also a small country and has a history of confrontations with Russia, so what did the Finnish do? They decided that it is best for them to have an army which is not part of NATO, and it seems to me that they have followed a policy which is carefully designed not to create unnecessary anxiety to Russia. I think their example should be followed by states who feel threatened by Russia.
            Last edited by pamak; 10 Jul 18, 12:32.
            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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            • Originally posted by pamak View Post
              The point is that as long as I do not see a conventional superiority of the Russian forces compared to that that EU can gather even under the current budget,
              Based on your previous admission, I recommend that you do some serious study of the Russian conventional forces and look at their recent military actions. For comparison, look at the state of the German military forces--I think you will be shocked--it is the real drive for Merkle to talk about more allocation for military.

              Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post

                Based on your previous admission, I recommend that you do some serious study of the Russian conventional forces and look at their recent military actions. For comparison, look at the state of the German military forces--I think you will be shocked--it is the real drive for Merkle to talk about more allocation for military.
                Ohh I do know that the Germans have a small army. I remember when a long time ago I was looking at such statistics, the Greeks had more tanks than the Germans. But I see the sum of what EU can gather, and at least when I last checked such things (admittedly more than a decade ago), I did not see a reason for concern. if the US wants the Europeans to assume more weight in the European defense, then they must encourage the Europeans to develop a military centralized structure (EU army). The problem for the Europeans is not lack of military material but lack of political will to use the adequate military material they already have at their disposal in a centralized manner. And if the concept of the EU army is difficult (British will go apoplectic) , at least promote ways to have the NATO function in such a way that the Europeans who participate there get more responsibilities while the US gradually reduces its influence on NATO and its burden of cost .
                Last edited by pamak; 10 Jul 18, 12:55.
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                • Ohh, and something else:

                  For God's sake do not have states bordering Russia join NATO and feel like they have a blank check of security based on the fact that the US and the EU will cover them up. Since we are in a military forum, people may be familiar with the situation before the start of WWI. Historians still examine how things escalated at that tie=me, and one of the reasons for such escalation was the false sense of security that certain minor countries had based on their alliance!
                  My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                  • You need to move from opinion to known facts. See next under.
                    Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 10 Jul 18, 13:11.
                    Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                    • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                      Ohh I do know that the Germans have a small army. I remember when a long time ago I was looking at such statistics, the Greeks had more tanks than the Germans. But I see the sum of what EU can gather, and at least when I last checked such things (admittedly more than a decade ago), I did not see a reason for concern. if the US wants the Europeans to assume more weight in the European defense, then they must encourage the Europeans to develop a military centralized structure (EU army). The problem for the Europeans is not lack of military material but lack of political will to use the adequate military material they already have at their disposal in a centralized manner. And if the concept of the EU army is difficult (British will go apoplectic) , at least promote ways to have the NATO function in such a way that the Europeans who participate there get more responsibilities while the US gradually reduces its influence on NATO and its burden of cost .
                      I am not referring to size but rather the conclusions of a Bundeswehr Commissioner report in February 2018 which noted big gaps in personnel and equipment, end of 2017 no submarines and Air Force's 14 large transport aircraft were unavailable for deployment due to repairs, and fight jets, tanks and ships outdated. Bottom line, lack of military readiness 'dramatic'.
                      Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                        Ohh I do know that the Germans have a small army. I remember when a long time ago I was looking at such statistics, the Greeks had more tanks than the Germans. But I see the sum of what EU can gather, and at least when I last checked such things (admittedly more than a decade ago), I did not see a reason for concern. if the US wants the Europeans to assume more weight in the European defense, then they must encourage the Europeans to develop a military centralized structure (EU army). The problem for the Europeans is not lack of military material but lack of political will to use the adequate military material they already have at their disposal in a centralized manner. And if the concept of the EU army is difficult (British will go apoplectic) , at least promote ways to have the NATO function in such a way that the Europeans who participate there get more responsibilities while the US gradually reduces its influence on NATO and its burden of cost .
                        I would like to see a ref to that. In the 80's they still had the largest tank and ground force in NATO
                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                        • Originally posted by pamak View Post

                          But this problem is not solved by increasing military expenses.
                          Wow, the first lefty in the history of man that says dont throw any more money at something...Pamak I think your coming around, and dont even know it !!

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                          • Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post

                            I am not referring to size but rather the conclusions of a Bundeswehr Commissioner report in February 2018 which noted big gaps in personnel and equipment, end of 2017 no submarines and Air Force's 14 large transport aircraft were unavailable for deployment due to repairs, and fight jets, tanks and ships outdated. Bottom line, lack of military readiness 'dramatic'.
                            And I am saying that when one makes decisions regarding if he should increase or not his budget, he also takes in consideration the military capabilities of the adversary and the potential threat he has to confront. And even if Germany has a very low readiness, I doubt that it needs to almost double its military expenditures in order to improve the availability of its submarines or airplanes, but I will agree with you that if they have zero available submarines on patrol, they must take measures to correct this. Still, regarding the big picture, the bottom line is that since you (I mean the US) demand that the EU should increase its military budget, such demand must be backed up with real data to compare the quality and quantity (including availability) of the Russian armed forces compared to that of the EU members (or compared to that of the NATO members-excluding the US).


                            Hearing that the Germans have outdated equipment does not by itself reveal much. Russians also have outdated equipment, and if I remember well, the last airplane they lost to the Turkish AA defense was a SU-24 which despite its age as an aircraft design, it participated in combat operations (and after double checking it, I saw that I was right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_R...u-24_shootdown). As long as I do not see hard data to make comparisons, the whole demand of increasing military expenses does not convince me. And if you, as a professional who knows where to look to find such data do not provide such details, I am not going to spend my short time vacation comprising a list of the capability of 25 plus countries in the EU or NATO and compare the results to that of Russia according to whatever information we have about them. Do not you think it is a little bit unfair to ask me to start such project so that I can be convinced that the American claims are correct? Anyway, Greece at least will continue to spend a lot of money. The US Congress approved the sale of the F-35 to the Turks from what I heard.
                            Last edited by pamak; 10 Jul 18, 18:40.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                              I would like to see a ref to that. In the 80's they still had the largest tank and ground force in NATO
                              I will give a try to see what I will find...At first glance it does not sound that easy to do it. Do you at least have data for the German side, so that I can focus on the Greek one only?

                              edit

                              page 337 from marines.mil shows the composition of the Greek tank forces (including the different MBT types) in 1994. It is part of a bigger country study document.

                              https://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/P...-11-163243-267

                              This was the situation about a year after I finished my service in the army, and it is about the time I was talking about.
                              I will wait for data regarding the German tank forces in the early 1990's. I assume there must have been some reduction compared to the number of tanks they had during the cold war in the 1980's but this applies only for the West Germany forces since the German unification must have drastically changed the overall numbers.
                              Last edited by pamak; 10 Jul 18, 17:27.
                              My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                              Comment


                              • This is another Trump screw-up that does not help the United States at all. He is falsely accusing Germany of being a 'captive' of Russia and ignores the fact that all NATO members are increasing their military spending as agreed upon in 2014 after Russia 'annexed' Crimea.

                                He is also blissfully ignorant of the fact that the only time that Article 5 of the NATO treaty has been invoked was after 9/11 and the US was supported by NATO.

                                Trump is a fool and is acting as a tool for Putin.

                                https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartandhp
                                We are not now that strength which in old days
                                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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