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  • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

    Their track record speaks for itself. Other than the Brits it is a long list of bloody defeats and even more costly victories.
    You really need to spend more time in the history forum.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...tory_of_France

    According to historian Niall Ferguson: "of the 125 major European wars fought since 1495, the French have participated in 50 – more than Austria (47) and England (43). Out of 168 battles fought since 387BC, they have won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10." [1]
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pamak View Post

      Who cares about the reason they do not want to spend 2%. The point is if the current level of spending is enough to have the necessary military equipment and army to confront Russia in case of a crisis. And from what I recall, the EU does have a superior army in quantitative and qualitative terms because the EU is just way bigger compared to Russia. So why should not they spend more money for social healthcare instead of wasting it to boost the profits of the military industry?
      The problem is they don't have the necessary means to confront Russia. Bosnia and Libya, of late point to that.

      For example, the Bundeswehr is in horrid shape. It's readiness is at pathetic levels.

      http://www.warfare.today/2018/02/28/...action-report/

      http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...ry-dying-13748

      And in general the consensus is Europe alone is not able to defend itself

      https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...gainst-4117974

      https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1...fense-spending

      Comment


      • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

        The problem is they don't have the necessary means to confront Russia. Bosnia and Libya, of late point to that.

        For example, the Bundeswehr is in horrid shape. It's readiness is at pathetic levels.

        http://www.warfare.today/2018/02/28/...action-report/

        http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...ry-dying-13748

        And in general the consensus is Europe alone is not able to defend itself

        https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...gainst-4117974

        https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1...fense-spending
        Have you made comparisons with the Russian army? I am honest to admit that I have not followed these things in the last decade or so, but I do recall Russian tanks breaking down during parades in the Red Square and door handles breaking when people were trying to open a Jeep's door in front of Putin.
        Last edited by pamak; 09 Jul 18, 16:10.
        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post

          If there is no problem, why does Nato still exist and why are the European states begging : Yankee come back .The Europeans are unwilling to pay for their defence.
          Maybe the US should move to those nations that want us to really defend them and are willing to pay the most for that, like Poland or Hungary. They remember what a total nightmare it was to live under Russian / Soviet rule.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

            Maybe the US should move to those nations that want us to really defend them and are willing to pay the most for that, like Poland or Hungary. They remember what a total nightmare it was to live under Russian / Soviet rule.
            Actually they lived pretty good in those times. Apart Poland and the Baltics, all others are much less willingly to pay for US presence.
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pamak View Post

              Have you made comparisons with the Russian army? I am honest to admit that I have not followed these things in the last decade or so, but I do recall Russian tanks breaking down during parades in the Red Square and door handles breaking when people were trying to open a Jeep's door in front of Putin.
              An agreement was reached among the NATO countries in 2014 that they would raise their defense budgets to two percent by 2024. This was a done deal before Trump began his idiotic nonsense regarding NATO.

              And there is no general defense fund that the member nations ante-up for.
              We are not now that strength which in old days
              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                An agreement was reached among the NATO countries in 2014 that they would raise their defense budgets to two percent by 2024. This was a done deal before Trump began his idiotic nonsense regarding NATO.

                And there is no general defense fund that the member nations ante-up for.
                Actually, it was not a done deal. See my post

                https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...84#post5045584

                Edit: Just noticed that you have a different date than the one Armstrong provided. Are you talking about a different deal or about the continuation of the same deal I described in the above link? In any case, if there is a specific agreement to raise it to 2% by 2024, then how can one complain about the fact that the military expense is not yet @ that level?
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment


                • Comment


                  • It is too bad that you have to resort to cartoons to try to make a point. There is nothing of substance in your post and if you actually had material to post I assume that you would.
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                      It is too bad that you have to resort to cartoons to try to make a point. There is nothing of substance in your post and if you actually had material to post I assume that you would.







                      I had a feeling that the conversation would eventually end up in this way the moment I saw the first post bringing the issue of the past European military experience. It was a matter of time before someone would eventually start talking about the moral character of the Europeans and the Americans and the gratitude that the former should have for the latter.
                      Last edited by pamak; 09 Jul 18, 20:14.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                        "Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                        Their track record speaks for itself. Other than the Brits it is a long list of bloody defeats and even more costly victories."

                        You really need to spend more time in the history forum.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...tory_of_France

                        According to historian Niall Ferguson: "of the 125 major European wars fought since 1495, the French have participated in 50 – more than Austria (47) and England (43). Out of 168 battles fought since 387BC, they have won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10." [1]

                        Edit quote's font color for clarity

                        and

                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                        Maybe the US should move to those nations that want us to really defend them and are willing to pay the most for that, like Poland or Hungary. They remember what a total nightmare it was to live under Russian / Soviet rule.
                        It is interesting to see that in a military forum, people talk about the American and European military experience or effectiveness during WWII, forgetting that at the time it was actually the Europeans who had higher peace military budgets than the Americans, or the fact that the Russians were among the nations which payed the heaviest price in their military victories and defeats, or the fact that strictly with respect to the defeat of the Nazi Germany, both western Europeans and Americans should have a lot of appreciation and gratitude for the effort of the common Soviet people, whose sacrifice permitted the western armies the luxury of long-term training before their main class against a depleted Nazi Germany army which saved a lot of blood.

                        Meanwhile, all of the above are just inhibitors to a serious discussion regarding if there are indeed military reasons to have the Europeans increase their defense budget and if the American tax payers have valid reasons to complain that they are taken for granted. Anyway, I am not going to spend my short-term vacation searching this topic when people are not interested in such conversations. Plus, the NATO issue is only a small part of this thread which is not titled yet "Make NATO Great Again."

                        ps: Is it just me who cannot anymore include a quote within a bigger quote or is it one more problem of the new forum? In the old forum one could manually do it.
                        Last edited by pamak; 09 Jul 18, 21:55.
                        My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          No...he merely betrayed his oath of office and murdered some 600,000 men to support his vanity. Very few politicians serve in any useful way. That's why they go into politics in the first place - to avoid risk. Look at Lil' Bush - deserted the Air National Guard and betrayed his oath of service to hide in politics. Senior Bush was the only one with a set of balls.
                          So do you support continuous slavery you being so opposed to Lincoln? Sr Bush was perhaps the only GOP POTUS but JFK had them too.
                          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post

                            What nonsense, did Lincoln serve his country in combat, police commissioner.... T
                            No but...he volunteered and served. That his unit was never but into action was hardly his fault.
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pamak View Post
                              Ohh, and by the way, Greece was consistently among the countries with very high military expenses. Our GDP portion for our defense was always wayy above the 2%. I am not familiar about the situation now after the economic crisis, but in 1990's when I served in the Greek army, I think we were close to have a 4% share of GDP spent for the defense. If I recall well, it was the US, Turkey and Greece as the top spenders in NATO.
                              Greece is one of the five who does pay their share, and as you point out it is above 2%--it's an admirable 2.38% given their recent economic woes. US is 3.61%. Since the agreement was in 2006, 12 years later we have the following NATO members at the following rates:
                              France 1.78
                              Germany 1.19 (Merkle claims Germany will work to raise theirs to 1.5)
                              Denmark 1.17
                              Netherlands 1.17
                              Italy 1.11
                              Canada .99

                              What is shameful is these countries beat leading (?) European countries:
                              Turkey 1.56
                              Norway 1.54
                              Lithuania 1.49
                              Romania 1.48
                              Latvia 1.45
                              Portugal 1.38
                              Bulgaria 1.35
                              Croatia 1.23
                              Albania 1.21

                              Trump can read a spread sheet.
                              Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 10 Jul 18, 04:10.
                              Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                                Maybe the US should move to those nations that want us to really defend them and are willing to pay the most for that, like Poland or Hungary. They remember what a total nightmare it was to live under Russian / Soviet rule.
                                Of course - why is your NATO HQ still in Belgium, the Russians have returned to Russia, we don't care any more...

                                Either that or stay and return the alliance to its original purpose, to saveguard the Atlantic trade routes, but that doesn't take 2% of our GNP.

                                But at any rate, stop begging, you're not getting our money
                                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                                Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

                                Comment

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