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  • Cambronnne
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    We're not quite done yet - I expect much of the game against England on Saturday - with no pressure, no other consideration then to play a good game, and an opponent inclined to play along, this may just be the best game of all.

    Shame we just missed the final, France just a few days after Brazil proved to to be too much...



    Indeed and that's why the Belgian airforce among many others flies Air Police missions there, specialists are deployed to various other places, frigates sail and the Med. and the Persian Gulf, and our minesweepers are incorperated in the general NATO naval strategy, we host both the NATO HQ and SHAPE, and every few months we provide security, food and lodgings when the entire parade of heads of state decides to have a party again.

    That's not to mention various US logistics bases, and and airbase that may or may not be used to store US nukes.

    In addition to that Belgian forces are in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali, Lebanon, and I'm probably forgetting a few other shitholes.

    Most importantly - IF anyone of the countries you mention is actually attacked there's the commitment and ability to mobilize and come to their aid, which is after all the essence of a military alliance.

    None of this is strictly necessary from a Belgium First pov., very little of it is to our own profit, and certainly it is more than the Poles or the Lithuanians have ever done for us.

    Ca suffit - if it's not enough for Mr. Trump, he can go wank elsewhere...

    Thing is, he knows that, Trump's very first visit abroad was to Brussels, where he met our King, PM and various military specialists who explained all this quite clearly to their American counterparts who wholeheartedly agreed, yet here we are again.

    All this is nothing but a propaganda campaign for the glory of Trump and upcoming US election.


    The complaints about NATOs defense spending predate Trump. He is just being more vocal about it. (Arguably for political reasons)
    I recall this being an issue during the Bosnian intervention in the 1990s as well.

    And it seems that Trump has a point about member nations failing to keep their promises about defense spending
    The alliance has set a target for its members of spending 2 per cent of GDP on defence - but the likes of France, Germany and Canada are among more than 20 members not meeting the objective, figures show.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ct-attack.html
    Last edited by Cambronnne; 13 Jul 18, 06:21.

    Leave a comment:


  • Half Pint John
    replied
    Originally posted by pamak View Post

    Your response shows why your approach cannot be used to classify things.

    In order to use your logic, you need to pick whatever fits you and leave other things that do not suit you even though such things are equally valid to use them for comparisons by applying the same logic:

    So, you ignore that unlike conservatives, modern leftists are not that interested in sending their kids to youth organizations like Boy Scouts.

    You also ignore the support of conservatives for a big government interventions from the issue of abortions to the issue of rescuing banks (yes, conservatives supported the bail out too) to big farm subsidies

    You certainly ignore the biggest issue in immigration (Nazi rejection of foreigners))and prefer to focus on a minor detail of Nazis supporting the repatriation of people of German decent (defined in racial terms because the Germans of Jewish decent were actually forced to leave).


    You try to counter my observations by saying that others did the same thing, but you carefully avoid this line of reasoning when you talk about the vegans and the animal right "leftists" One can as easily point to you at people who are not communists and are vegans or believe in animal rights. You should read about the religious Jainists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism). Not to mention that there are many leftists who are not vegans and do not have a strong belief in animal rights. maybe they have a stronger belief in such rights compared to you but this is NOT what makes them leftists. If I recall well, there was a thread in which even Salinator revealed that he is not into hunting. Conversely, most Nazi who were not into animal rights.


    All the above show the poor foundations of your logic which in the end forces you to apply it in a very selective manner, because if you do it consistently, you end up with contradictions and you can make everybody from the left or from the right look like a Nazi. as my previous post showed by using your logic.

    This is why I used a completely different approach in one of my previous posts to show why the Nazi ideology belongs to the right spectrum of politics (https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...48#post5046748)

    The Right doesn't unless there's a clear need for one.
    Then explain away why we have such a large military and outspend just about the whole world on out military?

    Leave a comment:


  • Half Pint John
    replied
    How about the invasion of Europe by Africans and Muslims?
    How many come with CW passports or the equivalent into France, Spain and Belgium? Paying the price for being a Empires what?

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
    That said, and off topic, I loved watching Belgium play in the WC. They were one of the few teams I saw that was consistently good.
    Perhaps the most enjoyable goal I saw was the final one they scored against Japan.
    We're not quite done yet - I expect much of the game against England on Saturday - with no pressure, no other consideration then to play a good game, and an opponent inclined to play along, this may just be the best game of all.

    Shame we just missed the final, France just a few days after Brazil proved to to be too much...

    Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
    I would submit that the issue isn't whether Belgium is facing a direct threat, but whether NATO allies are under direct threat.
    You are committed to protecting the security of the nations on the Russian border.
    You may feel secure, but I suspect Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, etc., do not. As such, while Belgium may not need military protection, those nations do.
    Indeed and that's why the Belgian airforce among many others flies Air Police missions there, specialists are deployed to various other places, frigates sail and the Med. and the Persian Gulf, and our minesweepers are incorperated in the general NATO naval strategy, we host both the NATO HQ and SHAPE, and every few months we provide security, food and lodgings when the entire parade of heads of state decides to have a party again.

    That's not to mention various US logistics bases, and and airbase that may or may not be used to store US nukes.

    In addition to that Belgian forces are in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali, Lebanon, and I'm probably forgetting a few other shitholes.

    Most importantly - IF anyone of the countries you mention is actually attacked there's the commitment and ability to mobilize and come to their aid, which is after all the essence of a military alliance.

    None of this is strictly necessary from a Belgium First pov., very little of it is to our own profit, and certainly it is more than the Poles or the Lithuanians have ever done for us.

    Ca suffit - if it's not enough for Mr. Trump, he can go wank elsewhere...

    Thing is, he knows that, Trump's very first visit abroad was to Brussels, where he met our King, PM and various military specialists who explained all this quite clearly to their American counterparts who wholeheartedly agreed, yet here we are again.

    All this is nothing but a propaganda campaign for the glory of Trump and upcoming US election.
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 13 Jul 18, 03:48.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cult Icon
    replied
    Politics as a pair of hormone generating, hanging testicles (which produce a certain set of behavior and cognitive biases) or a pair of ovaries (another set of behavioral and cognitive biases) .

    In neither case is any intelligence or reason required! Who needs free will??

    Leave a comment:


  • Cult Icon
    replied
    Originally posted by pamak View Post

    which is also the reason why the neonazi today choose to align with Trump and his supporters. They see that they are much closer to them than to Hillary and her supporters. This does not make Trump and his supporters neonazi but it does show that both them and the neonazi belong to the same ideological right -wing spectrum and the distance that separates them is shorter than the one that separates them from the modern left.


    The masculine and feminine polarity is very obvious and not discussed. (Right wing: masculine) (Left wing: Feminine). How many female neo-nazis are there compared to male?

    I have read Marx and I found it rather feminine ideology that was co-opted by violent strongmen.

    Leave a comment:


  • At ease
    replied
    Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Many of the same people that are right wing today would be nazis back in the 1930s; similar prejudices, concerns and most importantly, emotional spectrums. Just exponentially more "pansy" and far to the left in the actual things they complain about.
    Yes, I will put my hand up as a "right winger"/conservative/dinosaur/wing nut/deplorable, or whatever other tag you want to apply.

    But Nazi?

    No.

    The Nazis wanted Lebensraum, or "living space".

    How about the invasion of the USA by illegals of different nationalities?

    Lebensraum?

    Yes?


    How about the invasion of Europe by Africans and Muslims?

    Lebensraum?

    Yes?

    The influx of any developed nation by those seeking free stuff because their own nations cannot provide enough living space for them to the standard that they desire?

    Lebensraum?

    YES!


    Before you start criticising others about their legitimate concerns for their immediate neighbours, not the "opportunists", how about taking a good hard look at seeing who the real Nazis are.

    Comprende Amigo?
    Last edited by At ease; 12 Jul 18, 22:32.

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Many of the same people that are right wing today would be nazis back in the 1930s; similar prejudices, concerns and most importantly, emotional spectrums. Just exponentially more "pansy" and far to the left in the actual things they complain about.
    which is also the reason why the neonazi today choose to align with Trump and his supporters. They see that they are much closer to them than to Hillary and her supporters. This does not make Trump and his supporters neonazi but it does show that both them and the neonazi belong to the same ideological right -wing spectrum and the distance that separates them is shorter than the one that separates them from the modern left.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cult Icon
    replied
    Many of the same people that are right wing today would be nazis back in the 1930s; similar prejudices, concerns and most importantly, emotional spectrums. Just exponentially more "pansy" and far to the left in the actual things they complain about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cult Icon
    replied
    The "Volkisch" movement and the spirit of the anti-communist fighters (Freikorps) were among the spiritual and ideological origins of nazism. It is not well known, but the Volkisch movement (and the Darre, chief of the race and resettlement ministry who represented 30% of germans, who were rural) idealized quite a few libertarian concepts- it was ironically anti-state (anti-taxes too) in its end goal.

    In the Nazi view, they had to use the state to perform radical action, and then with the foundation established, the ideal family unit was that of a patriarch that owned a large farm in the East, complete with slaves.

    They rejected urban modernity in a way that it molded man into a "cog" into a machine; natural male impulses were oppressed. They saw the country life as the key to liberate the individual's individualism and thus abilities.

    The women's worth was based on her reproductive potential (to make as many children as possible for the nation) and the man's worth was based on his merit in the economy. Then the "best men" would emerge to develop rural corporations, and this new social elite would rule various territories in the East.

    Agriculture and "racial quality/race consciousness" was seem as the foundation for the rest of civilization: the cities, towns, technological innovation, etc.


    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    But, they did. They encouraged those of German decent and recent emigres to return to Germany.



    So? There are plenty of other Leftist regimes that have done the same.



    The Left supports this today. The Left has called repeatedly since Obama brought it up for massive government spending to rebuild infrastructure, and prop up industries they like, like the solar power industry, the battery car industry, to give two examples.



    The Soviets did that
    Cuba has done that
    The Sandinistas in Nicaragua did that
    N. Korea does that.

    Leftist governments love big militaries. The Right doesn't unless there's a clear need for one.



    You can pin that on almost the entirety of human history. Open homosexuality was almost universally reviled throughout human history.



    Except the Nazis were never pro-gun.



    Organized youth activities, particularly mandatory ones, are a staple of the Left. On the Right such organizations are both voluntary and usually not government run.



    No, you can't. Trump supporters don't call for more government. They don't want things like Obamacare or an expansion of the social-welfare state. They'd call for a welfare to work program for example, something the Left fights tooth and nail to stop.

    Your posts on this are dead flat wrong. It's that simple. You can't point to the Nazis wanting less government control, less government in general, less of anything that goes with less government. That's what the Right is about. Individuals come before the state.
    Your response shows why your approach cannot be used to classify things.

    In order to use your logic, you need to pick whatever fits you and leave other things that do not suit you even though such things are equally valid to use them for comparisons by applying the same logic:

    So, you ignore that unlike conservatives, modern leftists are not that interested in sending their kids to youth organizations like Boy Scouts.

    You also ignore the support of conservatives for a big government interventions from the issue of abortions to the issue of rescuing banks (yes, conservatives supported the bail out too) to big farm subsidies

    You certainly ignore the biggest issue in immigration (Nazi rejection of foreigners))and prefer to focus on a minor detail of Nazis supporting the repatriation of people of German decent (defined in racial terms because the Germans of Jewish decent were actually forced to leave).


    You try to counter my observations regarding what both Nazi and conservatives do by saying that others did the same thing, but you carefully avoid this line of reasoning when you talk about the vegans and the animal right "leftists" who supposedly believe at the same values that some Nazis believed. One can as easily point to you at people who are not communists and are vegans or believe in animal rights. You should read about the beliefs of religious Jainistsabout every form of life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism). Not to mention that there are many leftists who are not vegans and do not have a strong belief in animal rights. Not to mention that just because some leftists have a stronger belief in animal rights compared to you, this is NOT what makes them leftists. If I recall well, there was a thread in which even Salinator revealed that he is not into hunting, and he is not a leftist. Conversely, most Nazi were not into animal rights.


    All the above show the poor foundations of your logic which in the end forces you to apply it in a very selective manner, because if you do it consistently, you end up with contradictions and you can make everybody from the left or from the right look like a Nazi. as my previous post showed by using your logic.

    This is why I used a completely different approach in one of my previous posts to show why the Nazi ideology belongs to the right spectrum of politics (https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...48#post5046748)

    Last edited by pamak; 13 Jul 18, 03:27.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by pamak View Post

    I explained why your approach is very simplistic,

    One can also say that the Nazis

    Did not encourage immigration,
    But, they did. They encouraged those of German decent and recent emigres to return to Germany.

    Defined very narrowly the German ethnic identity,
    So? There are plenty of other Leftist regimes that have done the same.

    Supported infrastructure, and road building

    Supported heavy industry
    The Left supports this today. The Left has called repeatedly since Obama brought it up for massive government spending to rebuild infrastructure, and prop up industries they like, like the solar power industry, the battery car industry, to give two examples.

    Supported big military expenses,
    The Soviets did that
    Cuba has done that
    The Sandinistas in Nicaragua did that
    N. Korea does that.

    Leftist governments love big militaries. The Right doesn't unless there's a clear need for one.

    Thought gays were immoral
    You can pin that on almost the entirety of human history. Open homosexuality was almost universally reviled throughout human history.

    Now if you add to the above

    their pro-gun culture
    Except the Nazis were never pro-gun.

    their youth organizations,
    Organized youth activities, particularly mandatory ones, are a staple of the Left. On the Right such organizations are both voluntary and usually not government run.


    you can associate Nazi's with every Trump supporter who has some of the above characteristics or beliefs. I gave you in my previous post why your line of reasoning is wrong and why the Nazi's are part of the right and I saw zero attempt to address the points I made there. You just repeat the same reasoning.
    No, you can't. Trump supporters don't call for more government. They don't want things like Obamacare or an expansion of the social-welfare state. They'd call for a welfare to work program for example, something the Left fights tooth and nail to stop.

    Your posts on this are dead flat wrong. It's that simple. You can't point to the Nazis wanting less government control, less government in general, less of anything that goes with less government. That's what the Right is about. Individuals come before the state.

    Leave a comment:


  • Emtos
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Sure it does. The modern Left, like those before them, want:

    Big government
    Nope

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Centralized control of the economy
    Nope. Economy just should work for the interest of society, not the other way around.

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    A massive social-welfare state
    Nope

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Wealth redistribution
    You cannot redistirbute something that belong to other people in first place.

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Heavy dependence on public transportation
    Logic

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Government control of most public institutions such as the transit system, education, medicine, etc.
    Logic

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Putting society ahead of the individual
    Nope

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Animal rights
    What's wrong with that ?


    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Banning smoking and other vices they see as evil
    What's wrong with that ?

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Veganism
    Nope

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Environmentalism, particularly the more radical versions
    What's wrong with that ?

    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    You get all the stuff the Nazis wanted.
    Actuallly they wanted few things listed above. The wanted first of all a pure Aryan race.

    Btw, how does the perfect Right looks then according to you ? Feudalism in a wasteland is the more likely outcome.

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Sure it does. The modern Left, like those before them, want:

    Big government
    Centralized control of the economy
    A massive social-welfare state
    Wealth redistribution
    Heavy dependence on public transportation
    Government control of most public institutions such as the transit system, education, medicine, etc.
    Putting society ahead of the individual

    When you throw in:

    Animal rights
    Banning smoking and other vices they see as evil
    Veganism
    Environmentalism, particularly the more radical versions

    You get all the stuff the Nazis wanted.

    In short, they want the same sort of Dictatorship of Virtue the Nazis wanted, only their set of "virtues" is different today.

    On racism, the Left still practices that. They've just changed who the target is. White Privilege? Racist. Ethnic Studies? Racist. Women's Studies? Sexist that's a short list.

    Even the so-called Antifa, are nothing short of fascist thugs of our time. Are you really nave enough to believe that if the Left could get and retain power and control by violence and warfare that they'd pass on doing that? The Left would jump at the opportunity to impose their system on everyone at the end of a gun barrel.

    Their opposition to things like the 2nd Amendment, and controls on police extend only to efforts to remove effective opposition to their gaining power. They no more want guns removed to end violence than some NRA member. They want guns confiscated to eliminate a threat to their gaining power.
    I explained why your approach is very simplistic,

    One can also say that the Nazis

    Did not encourage immigration,

    Defined very narrowly the German ethnic identity,

    Supported infrastructure, and road building

    Supported heavy industry

    Supported big military expenses,

    Thought gays were immoral


    Now if you add to the above

    their pro-gun culture

    their youth organizations,

    their Christian religion

    and the fact that Hitler had a dog (sarcasm intended),


    you can associate Nazi's with every Trump supporter who has some of the above characteristics or beliefs. I gave you in my previous post why your line of reasoning is wrong and why the Nazi's are part of the right and I saw zero attempt to address the points I made there. You just repeat the same reasoning.

















    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Sure it does. The modern Left, like those before them, want:

    Big government
    Centralized control of the economy
    A massive social-welfare state
    Wealth redistribution
    Heavy dependence on public transportation
    Government control of most public institutions such as the transit system, education, medicine, etc.
    Putting society ahead of the individual

    When you throw in:

    Animal rights
    Banning smoking and other vices they see as evil
    Veganism
    Environmentalism, particularly the more radical versions

    You get all the stuff the Nazis wanted.

    In short, they want the same sort of Dictatorship of Virtue the Nazis wanted, only their set of "virtues" is different today.

    On racism, the Left still practices that. They've just changed who the target is. White Privilege? Racist. Ethnic Studies? Racist. Women's Studies? Sexist that's a short list.

    Even the so-called Antifa, are nothing short of fascist thugs of our time. Are you really nave enough to believe that if the Left could get and retain power and control by violence and warfare that they'd pass on doing that? The Left would jump at the opportunity to impose their system on everyone at the end of a gun barrel.

    Their opposition to things like the 2nd Amendment, and controls on police extend only to efforts to remove effective opposition to their gaining power. They no more want guns removed to end violence than some NRA member. They want guns confiscated to eliminate a threat to their gaining power.

    Leave a comment:

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