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  • Adding to a correction of your false information there are not 68,000 troops in Germany. We have 34,000 here. That 50% less than your over inflated number. http://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-...ments-country/
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

    Comment


    • In regards to the Troops in Germany did we not do a study on this 10 ish years ago.

      Bottom line came down it would cost us more to not have Troops in Germany than it cost us. I thought. Unless the US is going to withdraw from the world stage.

      Was a fairly long discussion on the forums.

      Comment


      • So, you think that having the US withdraw 68,000+ troops from Germany, who knows how many more US civilian employees, pulling all the cash that is being spent to keep those bases operating, eliminating how many German civilian jobs on those bases, will have no impact on the German economy whatsoever? That represents about 1 in 700 people in Germany leaving. That is a big number to have happen suddenly. And you claim that'd have no effect on Germany... Put the crack pipe down...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          So, you think that having the US withdraw 68,000+ troops from Germany, who knows how many more US civilian employees, pulling all the cash that is being spent to keep those bases operating, eliminating how many German civilian jobs on those bases, will have no impact on the German economy whatsoever? That represents about 1 in 700 people in Germany leaving. That is a big number to have happen suddenly. And you claim that'd have no effect on Germany... Put the crack pipe down...
          It has a huge imp[act, but why are we paying for it in the first place? Germany has to decide if they can afford to protect themselves, and that's it.

          1 in 700 people leaving? Where did those numbers come from. Remember that Germany is reunited and has a large population including a few million or so Third Party Nationals such as Turks, Bulgarians and all the rest who have flooded Europe since the Wall fell and the Euro removed travel restrictions. BTW - the removal of travel restrictions and the entry of huge numbers of former communist citizens pretty obviates any need for artificial security provided by America. Europe wants to one, big, happy family, so let them.

          FYI - when my outfit, the 8th Infantry Division, was disbanded as part of downsizing and removed from Germany the official impact was $ 3 billion dollars a year lost to the German economy. This is the same German nation that kept saying publicly "Americans go home!" and refusing to rent to American minority service members. Be careful what you wish for...

          Meanwhile I see on Google Earth that the military quarters and facilities are now all family apartments, shopping centers and sports stadiums., which were simply handed over to them without compensation.


          The purpose of REFORGER was to prove that reinforcements could be airlifted into Germany in a timely fashion in order to reinforce existing ground forces in the event of war. The fallacy is that those REFORGER reinforcements have to reinforce American troops already there. The truth is that the Germans can hold the line until help arrives, if such is required.

          Europa had a nice, cushy free ride for over half-a-century. Time for them to man up and shoulder their burden, and it is their burden.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by craven View Post
            In regards to the Troops in Germany did we not do a study on this 10 ish years ago.

            Bottom line came down it would cost us more to not have Troops in Germany than it cost us. I thought. Unless the US is going to withdraw from the world stage.

            Was a fairly long discussion on the forums.
            Might have been true ten years ago..."government studies" are unreliable at best and ten to say what the government wants to hear... but no longer true today. Europe forged the EURO as a political and economic entity which can just as easily be their united defense system as well. They just don't want to pick up the cost we used to pay to do it for them, and paradoxically they do not want American troops on their soil, either.

            Take a look at the Japanese if you want a strong example of that kind of xenophobia.
            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

            Comment


            • Does it ever pop into your head that US troops are where they are because of your own interest, or is it always just the other people wanting to cheat you out of money?
              You can have as much bias as yo are prepared to pay for.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

                Out of touch you remain. Our military and bases here don't even make a blip on most local economy's. We now have around 40 base in Germany. We had over 300 at the height of the Cold War and most closed down and left with in a couple of years. Did the German economy fall apart then or did it continue to grow?

                http://www.forgottenairfields.com/ge...ngen-s511.html

                Pattonville.jpgClosure and Redevelopment[edit]


                Following the withdrawal of most Army units in the area after the Gulf War, the installation was returned to the German government. By 1994 Pattonville, largely a housing complex, was opened as apartments for the local German population. The former Stuttgart American School complex is now in use as the Erich-Bracher-Schule.[7] The former military airfield supports the rescue helicopter "Christoph 51", which was relocated there due to air traffic congestion at the Stuttgart airport.[8]

                Jurisdiction of the area had been shared by the cities of Remseck and Kornwestheim, eastern and southern neighbors of Ludwigsburg, respectively. The irregular boundary between the two cities was realigned along John-F.-Kennedy-Allee, Pattonville's central spine, so that the western half belongs to Kornwestheim, the eastern half to Remseck. Pattonville's current population of approximately 6,000 (2013) is split between the two cities. The streets, named after various U.S. states, are a reminder of the postwar American military presence.

                All the smaller building have been built since we left.

                Robinson Barracks aka RB
                After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the United States began to draw down the force structure in Europe, including the 1992 deactivation of VII Corps (United States), headquartered in Stuttgart at Kelley Barracks and responsible for almost all activities in Stuttgart excepting EUCOM at Patch Barracks.[3] In 1993, the United States Army returned the portion of the installation that formerly hosted Europe's largest PX to the German government, which was redeveloped from 1996-2006 as a highly energy efficient neighborhood called Burgholzhof that is now home to about 3,000 people.[4] With the ongoing realignment of the US forces in Europe [5] there has been an increased demand for housing in Stuttgart and the Army is currently engaged in a renovation project of the facilities on Robinson Barracks.[

                https://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/inhalt.burgholzhof-200-wohnungen-auf-ex-militaergelaende.0c54bcad-ce5d-43f4-819a-b11d98e2a861.html
                Exactly. And with all of the Third World workers and refugees, they need the extra space. Some of the Euro nations have been repurposing abandoned military bases as refugee housing.

                I know that the Mainz operational area was taken over very happily by the local Germans and hardly a trace of it remains except the old French Kaserne. The Finthen airfield is now a thriving private airfield for Germans who obviously can afford private light aircraft, lots of them. They're probably growing white asparagus in the old missile bunkers, or mushrooms like the French did with some of Maginot Line Grosse Ouvrages. Big, dark spaces already equipped with all utilities are surprisingly useful.

                Just took a look on Google Earth - the entire area is heavily built up, former two-lane roads to small towns are now autobahns to large towns, and only the housing area in Mainz can still be identified, along with the Finthen Airfield, now a thriving airport no less. The Kaserne, the missile base, all of that including the Mainz Rebuild Center for armored vehicles has been built over and is no longer recognizable. Even the housing area has modern high rises and a brand new sports complex, with a very nice park where the parking lot used to be.

                They ain't hurtin' one bit.
                Last edited by Mountain Man; 12 Jul 18, 12:54.
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  It has a huge imp[act, but why are we paying for it in the first place? Germany has to decide if they can afford to protect themselves, and that's it.

                  1 in 700 people leaving? Where did those numbers come from.
                  ~100,000 /68.2 million (the population of Germany), rounded = 1 in 700. That counts 68,000 troops, their dependents (about 55% of the military is married), civilian personnel, etc. I estimated that, conservatively, to be about 100,000 total. It could be more.

                  Currently, the United States has
                  116,400
                  military personnel from all four services assigned to its European Command, an organization that oversees U.S. military affairs in 93 countries spanning Europe, North Africa, and part of the Middle East. Roughly two-thirds of these—56,000 soldiers and 15,000 airmen—live and work in Germany.
                  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...in_europe.html

                  Comment


                  • The population of Germany is over 80 million, not sixty. 70 000 tourists leaving isn't gonna destroy the country.
                    You can have as much bias as yo are prepared to pay for.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Karri View Post
                      The population of Germany is over 80 million, not sixty. 70 000 tourists leaving isn't gonna destroy the country.
                      Okay... doesn't matter. That's 1 in 800. It's still a very significant population to suddenly have disappear.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                        Okay... doesn't matter. That's 1 in 800. It's still a very significant population to suddenly have disappear.
                        Sure, but its not enough to cause major distress. Just some extra customers leaving. I doubt the US servicemen pay their taxes to Germany.

                        Do you have any actual numbers, like how much money is spent?
                        You can have as much bias as yo are prepared to pay for.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Karri View Post

                          Sure, but its not enough to cause major distress. Just some extra customers leaving. I doubt the US servicemen pay their taxes to Germany.

                          Do you have any actual numbers, like how much money is spent?
                          That represents billions leaving the economy. In many localities where there are big US bases, you would see a major impact on the local economy. Towns and cities relying on those bases for income, often being a major employer in the area, suddenly see a major hit on their economy and may not even recover from that. It happens in the US when military bases close, so it would happen in Germany too.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                            That represents billions leaving the economy. In many localities where there are big US bases, you would see a major impact on the local economy. Towns and cities relying on those bases for income, often being a major employer in the area, suddenly see a major hit on their economy and may not even recover from that. It happens in the US when military bases close, so it would happen in Germany too.
                            We're not talking about local economy though.
                            You can have as much bias as yo are prepared to pay for.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              It has a huge imp[act, but why are we paying for it in the first place? Germany has to decide if they can afford to protect themselves, and that's it.

                              1 in 700 people leaving? Where did those numbers come from. Remember that Germany is reunited and has a large population including a few million or so Third Party Nationals such as Turks, Bulgarians and all the rest who have flooded Europe since the Wall fell and the Euro removed travel restrictions. BTW - the removal of travel restrictions and the entry of huge numbers of former communist citizens pretty obviates any need for artificial security provided by America. Europe wants to one, big, happy family, so let them.

                              FYI - when my outfit, the 8th Infantry Division, was disbanded as part of downsizing and removed from Germany the official impact was $ 3 billion dollars a year lost to the German economy. This is the same German nation that kept saying publicly "Americans go home!" and refusing to rent to American minority service members. Be careful what you wish for...

                              Meanwhile I see on Google Earth that the military quarters and facilities are now all family apartments, shopping centers and sports stadiums., which were simply handed over to them without compensation.


                              The purpose of REFORGER was to prove that reinforcements could be airlifted into Germany in a timely fashion in order to reinforce existing ground forces in the event of war. The fallacy is that those REFORGER reinforcements have to reinforce American troops already there. The truth is that the Germans can hold the line until help arrives, if such is required.

                              Europa had a nice, cushy free ride for over half-a-century. Time for them to man up and shoulder their burden, and it is their burden.
                              Germany can not hold the line until helps arrives: German ground forces are only 60000 men , 60000, of whom only a part is operational .The existing ground forces no longer exist .
                              And, whatever Merkel may lying, there is not more money available for defence :Germany is no longer able to pay its pensioners a decent pension : 48 % of German pensioners have a pension, BEFORE taxes, of 800 or less Euro a month .
                              Try to survive with less than 27 euro per day !!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Karri View Post

                                We're not talking about local economy though.
                                No, we're talking about the whole of the German economy. If all US bases in Germany shut down and left a huge region of Germany takes a serious economic hit.

                                Comment

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