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Has America experienced a political pole shift?

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  • Has America experienced a political pole shift?

    A podcaster I listen to made an interesting observation. He said of liberalism that it has become a kind of neo puritanism.

    For much of contemporary history, conservatives have been viewed as the faction of the morality police. While liberalism espoused doing your own thing, conservatism was the faction of preachy moralizing, whether it involves sex, drugs, or rock and roll.

    But these days it is liberalism which acts more like the pious puritan stereotype. While conservatives become increasingly interested in deregulation and letting people live their lives as they choose, liberalism has embraced the mantle of public shaming, self righteous moralizing, and a sneering sense of personal superiority.

    Somewhere along the line we passed each other on the authoritarian spectrum. While conservatives do have a few pet causes left like abortion and for some the war on drugs, most just want to be left alone to do their own thing. Meanwhile the party of free love now has a laundry list of social rules as strict as any Victorian etiquette manual (get your preferred pronouns in order), legions of busybodies eager to preach about how sinful you are (with white privilege being the new original sin), and a new and surprisingly fervent belief in the sanctity of marriage - at least for Trump.

    Even the homosexuality debate shows libertarianism on the right and authoritarianism on the left, with conservatives who don't approve of homosexuality (a shrinking number by the year) merely wanting laws that protect their right to not endorse homosexuality within their private businesses while authoritarian anti sodomy laws have all but vanished. On the flip side, pro gay militants will ruthlessly attack Christian conservatives, not for being violent to gay people, but simply for not being pro gay.

    Have we experienced a polar shift in the authoritarian/libertarian balance of the two factions?
    Last edited by Pirateship1982; 11 May 18, 17:51.
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

  • #2
    I don't think so. just an increase in the number of irresponsible citizens among us.

    Comparing liberalism to neo-puritanism - an ultra-conservative mindset - is the height of lunacy.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      I don't think so. just an increase in the number of irresponsible citizens among us.

      Comparing liberalism to neo-puritanism - an ultra-conservative mindset - is the height of lunacy.
      Modern liberalism or classical liberalism?

      Classical liberalism I would agree with you.

      Modern liberalism is much more authoritarian.

      (Also one COULD argue that Puritans were social progressives. In that era Catholicism was the conservative route.)
      A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

      Comment


      • #4
        Liberals have always been oppressors. Conservatives defend values; liberal demand that you approve of their failings.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
          Modern liberalism or classical liberalism?

          Classical liberalism I would agree with you.

          Modern liberalism is much more authoritarian.

          (Also one COULD argue that Puritans were social progressives. In that era Catholicism was the conservative route.)
          The Puritans, we might recall, drowned people to obtain confessions and burned "witches" at the stake. Nothing "liberal" in their mental make-up whatsoever. They were, in fact, refugees who fled to America because Europe ran them out because of their openly professed views that Catholicism was - the religion that rejoiced in the Spanish Inquisition and the burning alive of all of the Templars, was not sufficiently "reformed" for the Puritans' far more rigid views.

          No matter what tag precedes the word "liberalism", the definition of it remains the same. The level of intolerance, female suppression and authoritarianism among Puritans rules out even the slightest possibility of it being confused with liberalism in any of its variants. One is either liberal or one isn't.


          Liberalism is a political view based on liberty and equality.[1][2][3] Liberals generally support civil rights, democracy, secularism, gender equality, internationalism and the freedoms of speech, the press, religion and markets.
          Religious freedom? Among the Puritans? Not a chance.

          Neither will we find a match with so-called "modern liberalism:


          Modern American liberalism is the dominant version of liberalism in the United States. It combines liberal ideas of civil liberty and equality with support for social justice and a mixed economy. The modern liberal philosophy strongly endorses government spending on programs such as education, health care, and welfare. IOW, "modern liberalism" simply demands that the taxpayers foot the bill for everything they believe in.
          "Neo-Puritanism", OTH, assumes that anyone who disagrees with its tenets is guilty and therefore must be punished; i.e., it's still Puritanism in all of its fanaticism and intolerances.

          And yes, I am aware of the medical etiology of the Salem witch hunts. Same as the French Revolution...ergot poisoning. (so the "experts" believe - it remains unproven.)
          Last edited by Mountain Man; 11 May 18, 18:33.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not sure what this is being based on. Yes, conservatives want to be left alone, but while bothering everyone else at the same time. They want their religion on everyone, their morals, values, etc. They don't smoke weed so it has to be illegal for everyone else. They don't believe abortion is right, so no one should feel abortion is right, gays shouldn't marry, Islam shouldn't be accepted, etc etc.

            Both parties are really about enforcing their way on everyone or the highway.

            The only party that truly wants to stay out of everyone's way are libertarians.

            Libertarians though are too reasonable, not polarizing enough to gain major support.
            "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
            - Benjamin Franklin

            The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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            • #7
              Think of all the liberals that voted for the Communist Party member Bernie Sanders.

              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              I don't think so. just an increase in the number of irresponsible citizens among us.

              Comparing liberalism to neo-puritanism - an ultra-conservative mindset - is the height of lunacy.
              My worst jump story:
              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
              No lie.

              ~
              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
                I'm not sure what this is being based on. Yes, conservatives want to be left alone, but while bothering everyone else at the same time. They want their religion on everyone, their morals, values, etc. They don't smoke weed so it has to be illegal for everyone else. They don't believe abortion is right, so no one should feel abortion is right, gays shouldn't marry, Islam shouldn't be accepted, etc etc.

                Both parties are really about enforcing their way on everyone or the highway.

                The only party that truly wants to stay out of everyone's way are libertarians.

                Libertarians though are too reasonable, not polarizing enough to gain major support.
                I AM curious how the many conservative atheists out there are trying to impose their religion on everyone else.....

                Also, you ARE aware there are many conservatives opposed to the war on drugs, right?
                Last edited by Pirateship1982; 11 May 18, 21:30.
                A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  The Puritans, we might recall, drowned people to obtain confessions and burned "witches" at the stake. Nothing "liberal" in their mental make-up whatsoever. They were, in fact, refugees who fled to America because Europe ran them out because of their openly professed views that Catholicism was - the religion that rejoiced in the Spanish Inquisition and the burning alive of all of the Templars, was not sufficiently "reformed" for the Puritans' far more rigid views.

                  No matter what tag precedes the word "liberalism", the definition of it remains the same. The level of intolerance, female suppression and authoritarianism among Puritans rules out even the slightest possibility of it being confused with liberalism in any of its variants. One is either liberal or one isn't.




                  Religious freedom? Among the Puritans? Not a chance.

                  Neither will we find a match with so-called "modern liberalism:




                  "Neo-Puritanism", OTH, assumes that anyone who disagrees with its tenets is guilty and therefore must be punished; i.e., it's still Puritanism in all of its fanaticism and intolerances.

                  And yes, I am aware of the medical etiology of the Salem witch hunts. Same as the French Revolution...ergot poisoning. (so the "experts" believe - it remains unproven.)
                  Oooookay, I see where the wires are getting crossed.

                  We're each using the term liberal in a slightly different context. When I was calling the Puritans liberal, I meant it in the countercultural sense of the word:

                  https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/liberal

                  "1.4 Regarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change."

                  Tolerance and freedom had nothing to do with it. I'm not at all saying the Puritans were freedom minded and it was precisely my point that they were authoritarian. What I was saying was that they were countercultural. Opposed to traditional thought.

                  I see a similar vein in today's progressivism: authoritarianism and party line adherence. "Our way is superior and you damn well better toe the line."
                  Last edited by Pirateship1982; 11 May 18, 21:38.
                  A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    I don't think so. just an increase in the number of irresponsible citizens among us.

                    Comparing liberalism to neo-puritanism - an ultra-conservative mindset - is the height of lunacy.
                    I agree. What I see is an increasingly urbanized portion of the US drifting ever further Left along with universities that have long had Leftist leanings. The Left would like to end, to the maximum extent they can, an ownership society. They want people to be renters and dependent on others and the government.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oh Lookie, another Bash Liberals thread.

                      Dear Mods,
                      I would like to petition a thread dedicated solely to Left/Liberal bashing similar to Messena's Trump files and then move ALL such threads to that file. And when a thread turns to Liberal/Left bashing, that it too be moved to the thread. It should clean up the thread mess nicely. I suspect you'll be left (pun intended) with just a few lose threads (pun intended again) to police.
                      Conservatives in the U.S. won't be happy until Jim Crow returns and "White Heterosexual Only" signs are legalized.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                        ....
                        Have we experienced a polar shift in the authoritarian/libertarian balance of the two factions?
                        Well, lets have a look at the evidence;

                        How Politically Biased Are Colleges? New Study Finds It's Far Worse Than Anybody Thought.
                        https://www.dailywire.com/news/30222...-james-barrett

                        Berkeley task force blames conservatives for leftist violence ... they invited speakers to campus who were "likely to incite a violent reaction"
                        https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=10862

                        A leftist will shed righteous tears when he attacks, "see what you made me do?" Those with small children recognize right away what's going on.


                        Berkeley student government proposes giving College Republican funds to Black Student Union
                        https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/44582/


                        So much for Colleges, lets have a look at where they go from there-

                        SPLC, Social Contract - Unlike most of its targets, the SPLC is the organization that genuinely expresses hate. In fact, hatred is its stock-in-trade. The SPLC’s goal is to identify and discredit, or even, in Potok’s words “completely destroy” those organizations and individuals it disagrees with. To reconcile the SPLC’s often contradictory and usually false narratives, one must understand that its constant vilification of political enemies is entirely tactical. The terms “hater,” “bigot”, “racist,” and so forth are frequently misunderstood as a spontaneous, visceral reaction to policies the Left opposes. Those with more political savvy recognize such narratives as an application of Saul Alinsky’s Rule Number 13: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.
                        http://www.thesocialcontract.com/art..._3/index.shtml


                        And on to the effects -

                        The Left’s strategic method is and has always been attacking principles under a guise of “compromise.” A principle, once “holed,” cannot be maintained. Take the right to keep and bear arms. Once firearms rights proponents had been persuaded to accept the nebulous rationale of “safety” as a premise of equal stature, the Left had won the game, even if checkmate remained fifty or sixty moves away. I and others have maintained for some time that those who steer the Left have never been interested in “safety,” or “efficiency,” or whatever their Shibboleth of the Month might be. They want total power, unbounded in scope and unlimited in application.
                        http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com...se-canard.html


                        And Socially -

                        The Boy Scouts organization was designed to make boys into men by taking them out into the woods with other boys and none of the distractions of girls or socializing. There, they learned survival techniques and woodsmanship. Now it will become another social club. Boys will not take risks. Most of all, boys will not have a space of their own; the Left hates it when any “privileged” group has something of its own. That explains why they chose this battleground. With the snowflakes in charge, the BSA death cycle becomes complete. No one will volunteer to work someplace where they can have their good names and careers ruined for using the wrong pronoun.
                        http://www.amerika.org/politics/boy-...a-gets-wumped/


                        As I have been saying for years....
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

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                        • #13
                          I still can't tell the difference between leftist and rightist. Democrat and Republican(honestly, no idea which one Trump is or Obama was). Conservative or Liberal. When it comes to America that is. Y'all kinda just go into the crybaby/snowflake category. Whining about everything. It would help if you at least stuck to your guns, but it seems that all that matters when it comes to whining is what the other guy is doing. And the other guy is whining about what you do of course. Then, from time to time, you start doing what he does and he does what you do, and then you whine from the other end of the rope.

                          Would be fine otherwise, but it results in threads like these which leads to you guys not really understanding anything about politics. Labels and sport teams.
                          Wisdom is personal

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Anthrax View Post
                            Oh Lookie, another Bash Liberals thread.

                            Dear Mods,
                            I would like to petition a thread dedicated solely to Left/Liberal bashing similar to Messena's Trump files and then move ALL such threads to that file. And when a thread turns to Liberal/Left bashing, that it too be moved to the thread. It should clean up the thread mess nicely. I suspect you'll be left (pun intended) with just a few lose threads (pun intended again) to police.
                            Well, if Progressives and the Left didn't have a centuries long track record of destroying lives, making whole societies miserable and mired in mediocrity, and of wrecking economies, to mention just a few of their worst flaws, they probably wouldn't need bashing.

                            But, since they've done more to destroy lives, countries, and economies, than war I'd say they deserve bashing... And then some.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Karri View Post
                              I still can't tell the difference between leftist and rightist. Democrat and Republican(honestly, no idea which one Trump is or Obama was). Conservative or Liberal.
                              Really?

                              Comment

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