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  • Less for More

    Teachers demand more, produce less as test scores decline
    ...
    Arizona teachers demanding another $1 billion in school funding have argued that their ongoing four-day walkout is “for the kids,” but don’t expect the pay hike to stoke student achievement.

    Lost in the hubbub over this year’s high-profile K-12 walkouts was the release last month of a comprehensive 2016-17 study showing that student test scores continue to stagnate even though education spending has climbed for decades.

    The Nation’s Report Card, a study released every two years by the National Assessment of Educational Progress, found most students below proficiency in math and reading in keeping with what the Thomas B. Fordham Institute’s Michael J. Petrilli described as a “lost decade” of educational progress.

    The Education Department released a graph showing that fourth-grade reading scores virtually unchanged since 1990 even as per-pupil spe
    ...
    The latest NAEP scores found only 40 percent of fourth-grade public-school students were proficient in mathematics and 35 percent were proficient in reading.

    Among public-school eighth-graders, 33 percent were proficient in math and 35 percent were proficient in reading.

    “Coming on the heels of some modest declines in 2015, the 2017 scores amount to more bleak news,” said Mr. Petrilli in his analysis. “It’s now been almost a decade since we’ve seen strong growth in either reading or math, with the slight exception of eighth grade reading. There’s no way to sugarcoat these scores; they are extremely disappointing.”
    ...
    http://www.gopusa.com/?p=45013?omhide=true
    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

  • #2
    The governor has held two mass phone conference calls (eg., "Town halls" on the phone) with the public. There were thousands of people listening in and the governor had a panel of "experts" on to answer questions (you pressed #3 to get on the que).
    On the second one, I got to ask my question. This is the exact wording I used as I wrote it down before hand:

    Thank you governor for this town hall. I'm fine with the teacher salary increase, but as a taxpayer I want something in return.
    My question is this: What's in this package in terms of measurable outcome improvements like better test scores or higher graduation rates in return for this increase? And, if there isn't something like this in it, why not?
    That's verbatim what I asked.

    I was thanked and then the dissembling started. Nobody on the panel, nor the governor could give more than "That's a good question..." type of response. Basically, the response was something along the lines of "There's no way we can do that..."

    So, the teachers are getting something for nothing. I changed my position from supporting a salary increase to being opposed to it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
      Teachers demand more, produce less as test scores decline
      ...
      Arizona teachers demanding another $1 billion in school funding have argued that their ongoing four-day walkout is “for the kids,” but don’t expect the pay hike to stoke student achievement.

      Lost in the hubbub over this year’s high-profile K-12 walkouts was the release last month of a comprehensive 2016-17 study showing that student test scores continue to stagnate even though education spending has climbed for decades.

      The Nation’s Report Card, a study released every two years by the National Assessment of Educational Progress, found most students below proficiency in math and reading in keeping with what the Thomas B. Fordham Institute’s Michael J. Petrilli described as a “lost decade” of educational progress.

      The Education Department released a graph showing that fourth-grade reading scores virtually unchanged since 1990 even as per-pupil spe
      ...
      The latest NAEP scores found only 40 percent of fourth-grade public-school students were proficient in mathematics and 35 percent were proficient in reading.

      Among public-school eighth-graders, 33 percent were proficient in math and 35 percent were proficient in reading.

      “Coming on the heels of some modest declines in 2015, the 2017 scores amount to more bleak news,” said Mr. Petrilli in his analysis. “It’s now been almost a decade since we’ve seen strong growth in either reading or math, with the slight exception of eighth grade reading. There’s no way to sugarcoat these scores; they are extremely disappointing.”
      ...
      http://www.gopusa.com/?p=45013?omhide=true
      the question is this on the teachers or other factors. as far outcomes

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by craven View Post
        the question is this on the teachers or other factors. as far outcomes
        Ask the teachers and it's never been on them. They've been singing the same tune for at least half-a-century. Someone should tell 'em that it's time to change the record.
        I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by craven View Post
          the question is this on the teachers or other factors.
          Good point.

          Before they award more money they need to identify the source of the problem.

          I would say that if only one-third of the kids are getting an education it not a time for pay raises for anyone, but rather a hard look at why two-thirds are failing.

          I would also like to see how private school students stack up. Perhaps the private sector could offer some solutions.
          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

          Comment


          • #6
            Somehow the parochial school students are able to achieve educations, and their teachers make but a fraction of what their public school counterparts make. Has anyone asked how the parochial schools have been able to conjure this miracle?

            Maybe when the teachers' unions stop putting money into keeping admitted pedophiles in the classroom they'll finally have some credibility, but until then, they can shut their pieholes and work -- for a change.
            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by craven View Post
              the question is this on the teachers or other factors. as far outcomes
              I personally believe there are other factors that may play a larger role, especially since individual motivation is key. Motivated students can rise above the incompetence of their teacher.
              HOWEVER ...
              "Teachers" always couch the plea for more money, for their pay and to the school system in general, as "for the children" strongly implying that without more money there will be less progress in education. Seems the record shows just the opposite.

              Footnote: Most teachers were being paid far better than I was in a manufacturing industries jobs and when I was single parenting during the 1990-2000s I still had to fill the education/teaching gaps for my two sons that the school system couldn't/wouldn't do.
              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

              Comment


              • #8
                Parochial schools do not have to take special needs students and most do not. They also can refuse to take a child with behavior problems. This right here tells me Parochial teachers don't have to work as hard as regular teachers.

                If people would demand less Federal influence in education they might get better results. I did two years teaching and my last year was terrible. My Special Needs students scored better than many of my "normal" students. I had a girl with a 4th grade level of intelligence scores pass my class. What does that say about the 40% that failed?

                Pruitt
                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you'll remember, and if I'm not mistaken, it was my state's....Oklahoma's...teachers that kinda started all of this with a walkout last month. They were ultimately successful in their endeavors.

                  I heard today, from someone I know that is in the education field in this state, that the teachers union is lining up teachers to run against the politicians that voted against their pay raises last month. If they are successful, look for other state's teachers unions to do the same thing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    Parochial schools do not have to take special needs students and most do not. They also can refuse to take a child with behavior problems. This right here tells me Parochial teachers don't have to work as hard as regular teachers.

                    If people would demand less Federal influence in education they might get better results. I did two years teaching and my last year was terrible. My Special Needs students scored better than many of my "normal" students. I had a girl with a 4th grade level of intelligence scores pass my class. What does that say about the 40% that failed?

                    Pruitt
                    It wasn't so bad back when you could isolate the trouble-makers. Our ISD used to have the 'alternative school' where trouble-makers were sent for a few weeks of zero privileges, tough teachers, and behavior counselors.

                    It turned some around, deterred the borderline trouble-makers, and let the teachers teach.

                    Then along came 'no child left behind', and now normal kids have to struggle to get an education while the classroom is turned into a circus.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We had an alternate school in our system back then. The school administration did not use it. They were bound and determined to keep trouble students in normal classes. I don't know why. It had an ex-football coach teaching and was in an old administration building. My school had a scary coach there that taught an in school suspension class. I can't imagine what it took to get into it.

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        I personally believe there are other factors that may play a larger role, especially since individual motivation is key. Motivated students can rise above the incompetence of their teacher.
                        HOWEVER ...
                        "Teachers" always couch the plea for more money, for their pay and to the school system in general, as "for the children" strongly implying that without more money there will be less progress in education. Seems the record shows just the opposite.

                        Footnote: Most teachers were being paid far better than I was in a manufacturing industries jobs and when I was single parenting during the 1990-2000s I still had to fill the education/teaching gaps for my two sons that the school system couldn't/wouldn't do.


                        I agree that there are many factors that can affect outcomes, but once teachers claim that paying them more is
                        "for the children", then they should be expected to provide some evidence to support that claim.
                        Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                        Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Everyone wants more money, and according to them, everyone is entitled to more for various reasons, so the teachers are just one segment trying to force the economy to go their way and the expense mostly of property owners, since that is the usual basis for assessing school taxes.

                          This move will only enhance the appeal of private schooling, religious schools and even home schooling, because the quality of education just isn't there in the public system, and it hasn't been for a very long time.

                          BTW - claiming this is "for the kids" means the teachers cannot justify is logically and have to use a standard cliche`.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                            We had an alternate school in our system back then. The school administration did not use it. They were bound and determined to keep trouble students in normal classes. I don't know why. It had an ex-football coach teaching and was in an old administration building. My school had a scary coach there that taught an in school suspension class. I can't imagine what it took to get into it.

                            Pruitt
                            I do. They got paid X dollars per student. Head count mattered more than results.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              I do. They got paid X dollars per student. Head count mattered more than results.
                              yeah some where along the line we screwed up and made funding based on head counts and days in school is in session

                              If you miss a week of school I get it but if it two days who cares if those two days make that much of a difference we are doing something wrong

                              Comment

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