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  • #31
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Mine weren't that I'm aware of. I don't think any of my immediate relatives were either. I worked at one job where there was one, but refused to join and waste my money on it. Good thing, saved me about $24,000 by the time I retired for them doing NOTHING! Not to mention one of the local's presidents stole about $35,000 in funds and wasn't forced to pay it all back or criminally charged... She bought herself a lifetime union membership with some of that...
    The UAW and various Steelworkers unions are about as American as one gets, these are the men whom built our country, drink beer and attend MLB games with their families.

    Numerous folk here in Buffalo NY are happy to be a member of a Union. Unions are important for steelworkers and automobile workers.

    Maybe your company was small and local. But for folks working for billion dollar companies , a Union is a plus.
    Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
    Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

    George S Patton

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by phil74501 View Post
      People still go to McDonald's?

      Back in my college days, way back in the stone age, I was working at a grocery store making 3.35 an hour. Down the road from us was a Safeway store that was unionized. Those guys were making 8 something an hour, to start, this is 1984ish, for doing the exact same job I was doing. $8 an hour in 1984, for a non-skill job, especially in these parts, was pretty good money. Then Safeway bailed out of the state, and all those unionized grocery stockers went to making 3.35 an hour like the rest of us.
      That is an injustice. Those types of pay discrepancies occur all over our country, but all in all I feel the USA treats its workers fair. We have issues but we are no North Korea.
      Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
      Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

      George S Patton

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
        The UAW and various Steelworkers unions are about as American as one gets, these are the men whom built our country, drink beer and attend MLB games with their families.

        Numerous folk here in Buffalo NY are happy to be a member of a Union. Unions are important for steelworkers and automobile workers.

        Maybe your company was small and local. But for folks working for billion dollar companies , a Union is a plus.
        The UAW was a major reason the "Big Three" fled closed shop states for ones that are Right to work. I remember years ago, sometime in the late 80's or early 90's watching a 60 Minutes program segment on a GM plant that was closing. They interviewed this kid that was 30 something as part of the segment. He was putting doors on cars as they came down the assembly line. He used this arm to take the door from the side rack and align it on the car, then hooked up the electrics, etc., and used an impact wrench to bolt it on.
        He was making, at that time, $70 an hour with benefits. The guy had a house, vacation house, boat, RV, cars... all the fun toys of the time. On the show he moaned about how he was losing his job and couldn't find another that paid anywhere close to that because all he had was a high school education.
        Then they showed the new plant a "maquiladora" plant in Hermosillo Sonora Mexico where a Mexican worker was doing the exact same job, the exact same way, and how trilled this guy was to be making a whole dollar an hour.

        Obama was involved as a community organizer in Chicago with the closing of a steel plant. Same thing. They had guys making $30+ an hour who were barely literate. One guy they mentioned in the article I read on this (Obama's bunch were trying to get these guys retrained to get new jobs) was about a guy who ran a "rod straightening" machine. He said his job consisted of pushing the first button to load a rod, pushing the second to straighten it, and pushing a third to send it on its way. The guy didn't even know for sure where the rods came from or went to.
        He was so ill-educated that the community organizers couldn't figure out ANY jobs this guy could do as an alternative. He couldn't make exact change...

        Many unions, including both those you mentioned are more interested in their members keeping their current job and paying dues than they are about growing their members and ensuring they have a lifetime of employment.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
          Provided - the membership are not a bunch of "Brainwashed Sheep" that have their dues used to fund Democrats, don't provide a yearly fat six figure+, the first number much larger then one, paycheck to the union president, and are not told to vote straight ticket Democrat in the elections. (UAW in the 70s who's greed resulted in jobs being outsourced out of the country and teacher union that allowed the public schools to become babysitting centers of unruly students turning them into dumb brainwashed sheep.)

          Forum is becoming flaky in typing post with several second delays again.
          Ron let me tell you something you will admire about the historic message of the UAW. Automobile and Steel factory workers helped the allies to win WW2.


          "500 Planes a Day"

          In 1940, in the midst of World War II, the United States was producing fighter planes to help the allies in their war against Hitler's aggression. The production was slow, inadequate, and threatening the security of the Allies. The US planned to construct new manufacturing plants specifically to produce more planes. That plan, however, would have taken two years to begin producing planes. The Allies did not have that time to spare. In response, Reuther proposed "to transform the entire unused capacity of the auto industry into one huge plane production unit capable of turning out 500 Planes a Day." After getting the support of workers, he publicly announced the "Reuther Plan: 500 Planes a Day," shortly before Christmas, 1940.[69] He said, during a national radio address on December 28, 1940:

          In London they are huddled in the subways praying for aid from America. In America we are huddled over blueprints praying that Hitler will be obliging enough to postpone an "all out" attack on England for another two years until new plants finally begin to turn out engines and aircraft. We believe that without disturbing present aircraft plant production schedules we can supplement them by turning out 500 planes a day of a single standard fighting model by the use of idle automative capacity. . . . England's battles, it used to be said, were won on the playing fields of Eton. America's can be won on the assembly lines of Detroit. Give England planes and there will be no need to give her men.
          .....
          After the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, many of Reuther's proposals were implemented. Detroit's automobile plants produced planes and tanks in mass volume and became known as the center of the Arsenal of Democracy, which gave the Allies a decisive advantage to win the war. By 1943, Chrysler President, K. T. Keller, reported that his company had converted 89% of its machine tools to wartime production, leading Washington Post publisher, Phil Graham, to state that meant Reuther was 89% right.[75] At the war's end, Fortune magazine wrote: "Reuther was right on track. Compared with many industrialists that sat back and hugged profits and the aimless agencies of Washington, the red-headed labor leader exhibited atomic spirit of action. He never let up."[76]

          [70]


          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter...lanes_a_Day%22

          During the 1940s, the USA led world steel production, that was when the United States had a strong middle class and had honor, we are still great but we have slipped..the middle class is not what it used to be. The USA is not as good as it was in the 1940s, there is work to be done.

          To be specific, Unions are a big plus for steel and automobile workers, I think in the end everyone here can agree with this. The fast food industry is not the same as the Steel and automobile industry. In fact we don't need fast food, but we need American steel and American automobiles.
          Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
          Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

          George S Patton

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
            The UAW was a major reason the "Big Three" fled closed shop states for ones that are Right to work. I remember years ago, sometime in the late 80's or early 90's watching a 60 Minutes program segment on a GM plant that was closing. They interviewed this kid that was 30 something as part of the segment. He was putting doors on cars as they came down the assembly line. He used this arm to take the door from the side rack and align it on the car, then hooked up the electrics, etc., and used an impact wrench to bolt it on.
            He was making, at that time, $70 an hour with benefits. The guy had a house, vacation house, boat, RV, cars... all the fun toys of the time. On the show he moaned about how he was losing his job and couldn't find another that paid anywhere close to that because all he had was a high school education.
            Then they showed the new plant a "maquiladora" plant in Hermosillo Sonora Mexico where a Mexican worker was doing the exact same job, the exact same way, and how trilled this guy was to be making a whole dollar an hour.

            Obama was involved as a community organizer in Chicago with the closing of a steel plant. Same thing. They had guys making $30+ an hour who were barely literate. One guy they mentioned in the article I read on this (Obama's bunch were trying to get these guys retrained to get new jobs) was about a guy who ran a "rod straightening" machine. He said his job consisted of pushing the first button to load a rod, pushing the second to straighten it, and pushing a third to send it on its way. The guy didn't even know for sure where the rods came from or went to.
            He was so ill-educated that the community organizers couldn't figure out ANY jobs this guy could do as an alternative. He couldn't make exact change...

            Many unions, including both those you mentioned are more interested in their members keeping their current job and paying dues than they are about growing their members and ensuring they have a lifetime of employment.
            Unions killed the steel plants in Texas. Besides raising the cost of man-hours, they fought to the bitter end to restrict jobs to exact and narrow job descriptions. The classic example was during various emergencies one steel plant had to call in outside welders because the welders (on duty and drawing pay) were prevented by shop stewards from making a repair because it wasn't covered in their job descriptions.

            It looks like at least one plant may reopen, but it certainly will be open shop and right to work.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              The UAW was a major reason the "Big Three" fled closed shop states for ones that are Right to work. I remember years ago, sometime in the late 80's or early 90's watching a 60 Minutes program segment on a GM plant that was closing. They interviewed this kid that was 30 something as part of the segment. He was putting doors on cars as they came down the assembly line. He used this arm to take the door from the side rack and align it on the car, then hooked up the electrics, etc., and used an impact wrench to bolt it on.
              He was making, at that time, $70 an hour with benefits. The guy had a house, vacation house, boat, RV, cars... all the fun toys of the time. On the show he moaned about how he was losing his job and couldn't find another that paid anywhere close to that because all he had was a high school education.
              Then they showed the new plant a "maquiladora" plant in Hermosillo Sonora Mexico where a Mexican worker was doing the exact same job, the exact same way, and how trilled this guy was to be making a whole dollar an hour.

              Obama was involved as a community organizer in Chicago with the closing of a steel plant. Same thing. They had guys making $30+ an hour who were barely literate. One guy they mentioned in the article I read on this (Obama's bunch were trying to get these guys retrained to get new jobs) was about a guy who ran a "rod straightening" machine. He said his job consisted of pushing the first button to load a rod, pushing the second to straighten it, and pushing a third to send it on its way. The guy didn't even know for sure where the rods came from or went to.
              He was so ill-educated that the community organizers couldn't figure out ANY jobs this guy could do as an alternative. He couldn't make exact change...

              Many unions, including both those you mentioned are more interested in their members keeping their current job and paying dues than they are about growing their members and ensuring they have a lifetime of employment.
              70$ an hour wow. Even my Dad and Uncle whom worked 35+ years at Ford Motor Company did not make that wage. That is some sort of exception to the rule. A good middle class job from the Steel and automobile plants were paying an honest middle class wage from 20$ -30$ an hour and a little bit more for the years put in. With overtime an American man and women black and white Christian alike could find dignity with a factory job. These were the men and women whom built the many cars and bridges we see today.

              Here in Buffalo NY and other major cities like Detroit there is a huge population of American men and women aged 50-100 that worked in the Steel or Automobile industry. I agree some Unions have issues. The UAW is one of the good guys, and its Unions like the UAW that played an instrumental role in making the USA the strongest country in the world.

              The GOP and Democratic party of today is not what it used to be. Work has to be done. In the 1940s both Republicans and Democrats admired the middle class man.
              Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
              Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

              George S Patton

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
                Ron let me tell you something you will admire about the historic message of the UAW. Automobile and Steel factory workers helped the allies to win WW2.


                "500 Planes a Day"

                In 1940, in the midst of World War II, the United States was producing fighter planes to help the allies in their war against Hitler's aggression. The production was slow, inadequate, and threatening the security of the Allies. The US planned to construct new manufacturing plants specifically to produce more planes. That plan, however, would have taken two years to begin producing planes. The Allies did not have that time to spare. In response, Reuther proposed "to transform the entire unused capacity of the auto industry into one huge plane production unit capable of turning out 500 Planes a Day." After getting the support of workers, he publicly announced the "Reuther Plan: 500 Planes a Day," shortly before Christmas, 1940.[69] He said, during a national radio address on December 28, 1940:

                In London they are huddled in the subways praying for aid from America. In America we are huddled over blueprints praying that Hitler will be obliging enough to postpone an "all out" attack on England for another two years until new plants finally begin to turn out engines and aircraft. We believe that without disturbing present aircraft plant production schedules we can supplement them by turning out 500 planes a day of a single standard fighting model by the use of idle automative capacity. . . . England's battles, it used to be said, were won on the playing fields of Eton. America's can be won on the assembly lines of Detroit. Give England planes and there will be no need to give her men.
                .....
                After the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, many of Reuther's proposals were implemented. Detroit's automobile plants produced planes and tanks in mass volume and became known as the center of the Arsenal of Democracy, which gave the Allies a decisive advantage to win the war. By 1943, Chrysler President, K. T. Keller, reported that his company had converted 89% of its machine tools to wartime production, leading Washington Post publisher, Phil Graham, to state that meant Reuther was 89% right.[75] At the war's end, Fortune magazine wrote: "Reuther was right on track. Compared with many industrialists that sat back and hugged profits and the aimless agencies of Washington, the red-headed labor leader exhibited atomic spirit of action. He never let up."[76]

                [70]


                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter...lanes_a_Day%22

                During the 1940s, the USA led world steel production, that was when the United States had a strong middle class and had honor, we are still great but we have slipped..the middle class is not what it used to be. The USA is not as good as it was in the 1940s, there is work to be done.

                To be specific, Unions are a big plus for steel and automobile workers, I think in the end everyone here can agree with this. The fast food industry is not the same as the Steel and automobile industry. In fact we don't need fast food, but we need American steel and American automobiles.
                You do know that it is not the 1940’s anymore right? It has been 2 generations since WWII. Things have changed get used to the idea.
                Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Tsar View Post
                  You do know that it is not the 1940’s anymore right? It has been 2 generations since WWII. Things have changed get used to the idea.
                  It was the Americans , black and white Christian alike that saved the world from the Third Reich.



                  Yes its 2018, but all over the world folks are embracing the allied cause which includes standing for the working man.
                  Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                  Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                  George S Patton

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The problem isn't so much that American steel and auto workers priced themselves out of the market is that it's impossible to compete with 3rd world countries. Would anyone here want to work in an Indian, Chinese or Brazilian steel mill for anywhere near what they pay their own workers?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                      The problem isn't so much that American steel and auto workers priced themselves out of the market is that it's impossible to compete with 3rd world countries. Would anyone here want to work in an Indian, Chinese or Brazilian steel mill for anywhere near what they pay their own workers?
                      That's something I can agree with but turd world nations produce substandard materials.

                      The Oakland Bay Bridge is a epic example of shoddy Chinese steel.

                      http://www.sacbee.com/news/investiga...le2589402.html
                      Credo quia absurdum.


                      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
                        Ron let me tell you something you will admire about the historic message of the UAW. Automobile and Steel factory workers helped the allies to win WW2.
                        ******
                        If you read my post, the UAW and Teacher's Union lost their way long after WW2 when their leaders became greedy supporters of the Democrats and made American manufacturing noncompetitive in the world market.

                        Those workers in those factories making the weapons of war were nearly all women while the men were all drafted or volunteered to serve in the military

                        Any stats on how many of them were unionized? How many of them remained on the job when the war ended? How many of those factories modernized after the war?

                        In Sag Nasty, Malleable Iron, gone. Baker Perkins, gone. Eaton, which made machine guns in WW2, now an empty brownfield. Most of GM foundries and assembly plants, gone. Steering Gear, or what is left of it, now a Chinese company paying not much more then the local fast food places. All of this took place under the Clinton Administration.

                        Saginaw, at 100,000 population, has become Sag Nasty with 50,000 low to fixed income people left.
                        “Breaking News,”

                        “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
                          Ron let me tell you something you will admire about the historic message of the UAW. Automobile and Steel factory workers helped the allies to win WW2.


                          "500 Planes a Day"

                          In 1940, in the midst of World War II, the United States was producing fighter planes to help the allies in their war against Hitler's aggression. The production was slow, inadequate, and threatening the security of the Allies. The US planned to construct new manufacturing plants specifically to produce more planes. That plan, however, would have taken two years to begin producing planes. The Allies did not have that time to spare. In response, Reuther proposed "to transform the entire unused capacity of the auto industry into one huge plane production unit capable of turning out 500 Planes a Day." After getting the support of workers, he publicly announced the "Reuther Plan: 500 Planes a Day," shortly before Christmas, 1940.[69] He said, during a national radio address on December 28, 1940:

                          In London they are huddled in the subways praying for aid from America. In America we are huddled over blueprints praying that Hitler will be obliging enough to postpone an "all out" attack on England for another two years until new plants finally begin to turn out engines and aircraft. We believe that without disturbing present aircraft plant production schedules we can supplement them by turning out 500 planes a day of a single standard fighting model by the use of idle automative capacity. . . . England's battles, it used to be said, were won on the playing fields of Eton. America's can be won on the assembly lines of Detroit. Give England planes and there will be no need to give her men.
                          .....
                          After the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, many of Reuther's proposals were implemented. Detroit's automobile plants produced planes and tanks in mass volume and became known as the center of the Arsenal of Democracy, which gave the Allies a decisive advantage to win the war. By 1943, Chrysler President, K. T. Keller, reported that his company had converted 89% of its machine tools to wartime production, leading Washington Post publisher, Phil Graham, to state that meant Reuther was 89% right.[75] At the war's end, Fortune magazine wrote: "Reuther was right on track. Compared with many industrialists that sat back and hugged profits and the aimless agencies of Washington, the red-headed labor leader exhibited atomic spirit of action. He never let up."[76]

                          [70]


                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter...lanes_a_Day%22

                          During the 1940s, the USA led world steel production, that was when the United States had a strong middle class and had honor, we are still great but we have slipped..the middle class is not what it used to be. The USA is not as good as it was in the 1940s, there is work to be done.

                          To be specific, Unions are a big plus for steel and automobile workers, I think in the end everyone here can agree with this. The fast food industry is not the same as the Steel and automobile industry. In fact we don't need fast food, but we need American steel and American automobiles.
                          That was WWII and this is now. Totally different circumstances and the unions have not only outlived their initial usefulness, they now act as deliberate roadblocks to progress and international trade and commerce.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            That was WWII and this is now. Totally different circumstances and the unions have not only outlived their initial usefulness, they now act as deliberate roadblocks to progress and international trade and commerce.
                            not sure they outlived there usefulness but they do need a revamp. Something more along the line of the professional sports unions operate

                            Teams make X dollars and then the owners and players fight over percentages and that changes as the market changes.

                            remember how some unions refused to take cuts in the auto industry during the down turn if company is not making money something got to give.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by craven View Post
                              not sure they outlived there usefulness but they do need a revamp. Something more along the line of the professional sports unions operate

                              Teams make X dollars and then the owners and players fight over percentages and that changes as the market changes.

                              remember how some unions refused to take cuts in the auto industry during the down turn if company is not making money something got to give.


                              Not just auto unions.

                              In the 1980s, the Chicago Tribune newspaper automated their printing methods making all of their typesetters obsolete.
                              The Tribune said they would retrain the typesetters and employ them elsewhere, but the typesetters said if they weren't retained as typesetters they would strike.
                              The Tribune seeing an opportunity to remove the burden of retraining obsolete workers said to go ahead.
                              The strikers kept their vigil in front of the Tribune for years before giving up.

                              Anyway, you are right, they need to revamp their approach because they are doing their members more harm than good.
                              When a worker wasn't easily replaced by a machine they had more leverage. Those days are gone and unions need to consider that.
                              Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                              Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Know why the horse is the symbol of the Teamster's Union?
                                It's the only animal that can sleep standing up...
                                ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                                IN MARE IN COELO

                                Comment

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