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How much sympathy should be granted to a politically active crime victim?

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  • #16
    Conservatives had Jemele Hill removed from her show for criticizing Trump. Free speech?
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
      Conservatives had Jemele Hill removed from her show for criticizing Trump. Free speech?
      Are you sure you want to open that can of worms?

      Ah, of course, when the argument is lost, divert obfuscate and divert some more, eh?

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      • #18
        The argument started off with a lot of hypocrisy. Conservatives don't care when liberals are fired for expressing their first. But, when the tables are turned, all of a sudden they care about free speech. There's no difference between you and the group you despise. Your behavior in this regard is identical.

        In short, there's no reason for me to take you or your argument seriously, since it's not free speech you care about, it's only your speech that matters.

        Conservatives have been extremely effective in quelling speech they don't like.
        "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
        - Benjamin Franklin

        The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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        • #19
          How did a thread about a lying little bugger instantly get turned into a debate on Trump?

          Trump had nothing to do with the shooting in any particular. No one blamed Sandy Hook on Bobo.

          The mods need to start hammering the same posters who keep derailing threads.
          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
            How did a thread about a lying little bugger instantly get turned into a debate on Trump?

            Trump had nothing to do with the shooting in any particular. No one blamed Sandy Hook on Bobo.

            The mods need to start hammering the same posters who keep derailing threads.
            No kidding using Soviet "Whataboutism" is a common tactic and those foaming at the mouth rabid mad by Trump Derangement Syndrome by left wing suffering members is turning this part of the forum in North America into a cesspool for debate.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by pamak View Post
              Bold mine...

              Does losing friends, classmates, teachers, etc count?

              Or should such losses be ignored simply because he was not at school at the time of shooting?
              Not really.

              As for ignoring them, no we should remember them as we remember anyone who dies. What makes them special compared to someone who is murdered by a thug that robs them? Or, someone who is killed by a drunk driver? Volume doesn't make them special.

              And, yes, David Hogg's opinion matters even less because he wasn't there and has both pretended he was, and alluded that he was. He is capitalizing on simply being a student at Parkland High. That doesn't make him special, nor does it make his opinion special.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                Not really.

                As for ignoring them, no we should remember them as we remember anyone who dies. What makes them special compared to someone who is murdered by a thug that robs them? Or, someone who is killed by a drunk driver? Volume doesn't make them special.

                And, yes, David Hogg's opinion matters even less because he wasn't there and has both pretended he was, and alluded that he was. He is capitalizing on simply being a student at Parkland High. That doesn't make him special, nor does it make his opinion special.
                You misunderstood me...

                I did not ask if we should ignore the victims. I asked if it makes sense to argue that we should ignore (or dismiss) Hogg's loss. Losing a friend or a neighbor or a schoolmate or a teacher IS traumatic. So why should not respect the fact that even though this guy was not at the school during the shooting, he still had to endure a traumatic experience?
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by pamak View Post
                  You misunderstood me...

                  I did not ask if we should ignore the victims. I asked if it makes sense to argue that we should ignore (or dismiss) Hogg's loss. Losing a friend or a neighbor or a schoolmate or a teacher IS traumatic. So why should not respect the fact that even though this guy was not at the school during the shooting, he still had to endure a traumatic experience?
                  Everybody has to endure traumatic experiences in their life. What makes this teen special that we should treat him so differently?

                  Awww... You lost a friend in a shooting. How horrible! You're special.

                  Awww... You lost a friend in a car accident. How horrible! Get back to work.

                  So, I have no particular special respect for Hogg or the Parkland students. They get the same respect as anyone else. In fact, I'd be more willing to give a soldier more respect for losing someone in his immediate unit than I would these high school students many, most, of which don't even personally know the victims.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Everybody has to endure traumatic experiences in their life. What makes this teen special that we should treat him so differently?

                    Awww... You lost a friend in a shooting. How horrible! You're special.

                    Awww... You lost a friend in a car accident. How horrible! Get back to work.

                    So, I have no particular special respect for Hogg or the Parkland students. They get the same respect as anyone else. In fact, I'd be more willing to give a soldier more respect for losing someone in his immediate unit than I would these high school students many, most, of which don't even personally know the victims.
                    And I see no problem with respecting the situation of EVERY person who endures a traumatic experience. Somebody loses his parents. Okay, normally most people will go though such an experience. Does it mean that losing your parents is not traumatic or that we should not respect the situation of a person who grieves his parents?

                    My argument is not that his situation gives legitimacy to his arguments about gun legislation. If you say that his situation does not strengthen his arguments about gun control, then I will agree with this. Just like the traumatic experience of a veteran does not mean his views about the war against terror are correct.

                    But let's separate these two things...
                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post
                      You misunderstood me...

                      I did not ask if we should ignore the victims. I asked if it makes sense to argue that we should ignore (or dismiss) Hogg's loss. Losing a friend or a neighbor or a schoolmate or a teacher IS traumatic. So why should not respect the fact that even though this guy was not at the school during the shooting, he still had to endure a traumatic experience?
                      I normally would but since it is now being used for political ends, I find myself no longer able to. It's being turned into political capital and I can't abide that.
                      A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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                      • #26
                        Who here hasn't lost friends to violence or senseless accidents, cancer, or illness?

                        That is part of life; you close ranks and keep moving.

                        Twenty-four black Americans (or more) die in a single weekend in the same city, by gunfire, and the liberals pay no attention.
                        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                          I normally would but since it is now being used for political ends, I find myself no longer able to. It's being turned into political capital and I can't abide that.

                          The fact that people are often affected by their feelings in how they respond politically is normal. Perhaps, it is not ideal or correct all the time, but it is is part of human nature. I am not going to condemn somebody simply because his emotions affect his political decisions. Almost all safety regulations we have are the result of emotions that grew after some accidents with multiple victims which created anger and energized people to demand stricter regulations. The mothers who lost their children and pushed for strict DUI regulations is one example. The fire regulations that came after the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory firefire is another example

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triang...t_Factory_fire
                          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by pamak View Post
                            The fact that people are often affected by their feelings in how they respond politically is normal. Perhaps, it is not ideal or correct all the time, but it is is part of human nature. I am not going to condemn somebody simply because his emotions affect his political decisions. Almost all safety regulations we have are the result of emotions that grew after some accidents with multiple victims which created anger and energized people to demand stricter regulations. The mothers who lost their children and pushed for strict DUI regulations is one example. The fire regulations that came after the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory firefire is another example

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triang...t_Factory_fire
                            Normally I would agree with you. I have a fairly high tolerance for outbursts when someone is bereaved. It is natural to be emotional and even irrational. But I can't maintain that position when the bereaved then seeks to harm someone else. Once it reaches that point I can no longer be supportive. It's okay to be angry. But once you seek to harm other people you step outside the boundaries.
                            A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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                            • #29
                              Meh.....

                              His time in the spotlight will soon end, and the left will cast him aside like the rest of their useful idiots.
                              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by pamak View Post
                                The fact that people are often affected by their feelings in how they respond politically is normal. Perhaps, it is not ideal or correct all the time, but it is is part of human nature. I am not going to condemn somebody simply because his emotions affect his political decisions. Almost all safety regulations we have are the result of emotions that grew after some accidents with multiple victims which created anger and energized people to demand stricter regulations. The mothers who lost their children and pushed for strict DUI regulations is one example. The fire regulations that came after the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory firefire is another example

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triang...t_Factory_fire
                                The problem with safety regulations is that those who push for them the hardest usually have a "Zero tolerance" mentality. They want regulations that put safety ahead of everything else, even if it makes doing something impossible as a result. There is no thinking "What's the optimal level of safety here?"

                                That results in much lower productivity, a push to replace people with automation, and in some cases drives industries overseas to places were the safety rules are more lax.

                                You mention drunk driving. You'll never see Mothers Against Drunk Drivers stop pushing for more regulations and laws. They want zero tolerance for two reasons: The primary one is that MADD has become a business. Those who work there need to justify their existence.
                                The second is the only thing they can do is push for more laws and stricter ones.

                                The March of Dimes is a perfect example of this mentality played out to its conclusion. The March of Dimes was started to eradicate polio. Well, polio has been eradicated. So, the March of Dimes no longer had a mission or purpose. Did they fold up and go away? NO! They found a new mission and continued on as if nothing had happened. They're a business and they're in business in part to provide careers and retirements to their workers.

                                So, the safety nuts, and they can be really nuts, do the exact same thing.
                                Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 01 Apr 18, 00:59.

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