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The Baby Boom Generation (50s-60s-70s) and School Shootings

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post
    Right now the current laws are not enforced, I don't think additional laws that may or may not be enforced will have an effect.

    IMO, the larger problem is with society itself. The abortion on demand mentality lowers the value of life. Violent movies & video games lower the value of life. Broken families lower the value of life. Taking God out of the picture lowers the value of life.

    I realize many wont agree with the above but the above 'behaviors' if you will were not openly present 30-40 years ago when kids took guns to school.

    Everyone over a certain age that can legally own a gun are currently permitted. If current laws were enforced, less people would own guns. I do think that everyone should have training before they can purchase a gun.

    Back in the day, the parent taught gun safety and marksmanship to the sons & daughters.

    There is a real solution and it all has to do with individual responsibility from all aspects of society.
    Interesting points and in broad terms I agree with you. I would say that the rise of individual rights is not the issue but rather the corresponding diminution of the responsibilities of the individual to society. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact they have to be kept in balance with each other for society to function. The problem is that we have strengthened one without strengthening the other. There's nothing wrong with people not being religious, the problem is when they are not moral or ethical. There's nothing wrong with violent movies & video games but if it says 18 on the box then nobody under 18 should be playing it.
    I'm not sure about broken families lowering the value of life; staying in an abusive relationship doesn't do anybody any good. The problem is parents not parenting, not doing their duty by their children. That can happen in a two parent or single parent household.
    I think duty is the common thread; duty to yourself, duty to your children and family, duty to your neighbours and duty to your country. If you take that seriously then who you sleep with and what God (if any) you prey to is irrelevant.
    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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    • #47
      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
      Interesting points and in broad terms I agree with you. I would say that the rise of individual rights is not the issue but rather the corresponding diminution of the responsibilities of the individual to society. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact they have to be kept in balance with each other for society to function. The problem is that we have strengthened one without strengthening the other. There's nothing wrong with people not being religious, the problem is when they are not moral or ethical. There's nothing wrong with violent movies & video games but if it says 18 on the box then nobody under 18 should be playing it.
      I'm not sure about broken families lowering the value of life; staying in an abusive relationship doesn't do anybody any good. The problem is parents not parenting, not doing their duty by their children. That can happen in a two parent or single parent household.
      I think duty is the common thread; duty to yourself, duty to your children and family, duty to your neighbours and duty to your country. If you take that seriously then who you sleep with and what God (if any) you prey to is irrelevant.
      Then you have to examine what we as society expect from people. In Europe people tend to have longer maternity leaves(including dads), plenty of holidays, and in general time to actually spend time with their kids. In USA there's a bit of a workaholic culture, as well as enormous pressure to "succeed", or at least so it seems to me. When you then measures success as how much money you have hoarded and not how well you have raised your kids you are bound to run into issues.

      You have to be realistic of course, nor is the situation perfect anywhere, but like you say the balance on that seems to have tipped too strongly in one direction.

      Sick people are not a result of sick society; but sick society certainly drives sick people far further into their delusions and desperation.

      Then take the school system as an example. Once upon a time they taught thinking(though only to the portion rich enough to afford independent thinking), now they teach memorizing and production. If you talk of morals as something that is taught as a set of commandments then you've already lost the game. For anyone to have any morals or ethics they need to understand the how's and why's of them. And if people are putting in eight or more hours per day at work they will not have any strength or brainpower left to actually think and contemplate these issues.

      One often also hears about the break up of the traditional family system; mom, dad and the kids. But in truth the traditional family system is the parents, the kids, the grandparents and the extended family, the clan or the tribe. Social isolation is a fact, which is absurd given that we live in cities packed brim-full.

      And you will always have crazy people. The worst you can do, when reacting to their actions, is deviating from how normal people function. Ie. banning guns from everyone or starting to arm school teachers. Then you're simply extrapolating their craziness upon the rest of the society.
      Wisdom is personal

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      • #48
        Society has changed in every country.

        Back in the 50s and 60s only the Irish were terrorists; now there is terrorism world wide (and the Irish have, at least for the moment, calmed down).

        Drug use is more common. The core family unit is under attack from every freak show. You have nutcases questions such basic things as gender.

        Being young in a world so savagely screwed up, so lacking in direction, purpose, or value, must be a great deal tougher than it was fifty years ago.

        There were guns in a lot of vehicles parked at school, especially in hunting season. I brought a revolver to high school (unloaded) as a prop during a speaking presentation, and no one cared.

        When I started police work body armor was new, and we hotly debated whether we needed semi-automatic pistols and shotguns in the cars.

        Mid-way through my career not only was I wearing body armor, but I carried a primary and a back-up sidearm, and a 'car gun', a pistol positioned in my car so I could rest my hand on the butt when someone walked up to my car to talk to me (because drawing from a security holster is difficult while seated in a car). When I retired, our uniformed officers not only wore body armor, but had plate carriers available in their gear in case they went up against a rifle-armed threat. And a M-4 style patrol rifle. And the hot debate was how much ammunition should be issued for the rifle.

        The times have changed, and not for the better. The world is a much more savage, amoral place.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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        • #49
          I do think that everyone should have training before they can purchase a gun.
          100%

          Back in the day, the parent taught gun safety and marksmanship to the sons & daughters.
          Like some teach their kids to drive?? Imo that's why we have a lot of lousy drivers while a lousy driver teaches their children to be just as bad.. the parent can accompany their children to a range were a trained instructor teach guns and gun safety. Just consider the Sandy Hook shooter. That mother taught her son weapons.

          IMO, the larger problem is with society itself. The abortion on demand mentality lowers the value of life. Violent movies & video games lower the value of life. Broken families lower the value of life. Taking God out of the picture lowers the value of life.
          So what is the difference between the US and other developed country's? Others have much the same culture but have fewer killings especially the mass shootings.

          One other thing that is different from 50s-70s is the size of schools. Until 75 My high school was one of 4 in town. Today there is one combined with around 3000 students. Seems a good place for an insure kid to get lost and misplaced. Could the Hugh schools be playing their part in the mental illness now days?

          "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution"
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
            Society has changed in every country.

            Back in the 50s and 60s only the Irish were terrorists; now there is terrorism world wide (and the Irish have, at least for the moment, calmed down).

            Drug use is more common. The core family unit is under attack from every freak show. You have nutcases questions such basic things as gender.

            Being young in a world so savagely screwed up, so lacking in direction, purpose, or value, must be a great deal tougher than it was fifty years ago.

            There were guns in a lot of vehicles parked at school, especially in hunting season. I brought a revolver to high school (unloaded) as a prop during a speaking presentation, and no one cared.

            When I started police work body armor was new, and we hotly debated whether we needed semi-automatic pistols and shotguns in the cars.

            Mid-way through my career not only was I wearing body armor, but I carried a primary and a back-up sidearm, and a 'car gun', a pistol positioned in my car so I could rest my hand on the butt when someone walked up to my car to talk to me (because drawing from a security holster is difficult while seated in a car). When I retired, our uniformed officers not only wore body armor, but had plate carriers available in their gear in case they went up against a rifle-armed threat. And a M-4 style patrol rifle. And the hot debate was how much ammunition should be issued for the rifle.

            The times have changed, and not for the better. The world is a much more savage, amoral place.
            Pretty much. I anticipate by my retirement we'll be making routine traffic stops with rifles or sub-guns.
            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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            • #51
              Originally posted by BorderRuffian View Post
              I grew up during that period and never heard of a school shooting. There may have been one, but it never came to my knowledge.
              Just not paying attention:
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2I84-A9duY

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                Society has changed in every country.
                Yes, mostly for the better.
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                Back in the 50s and 60s only the Irish were terrorists; now there is terrorism world wide (and the Irish have, at least for the moment, calmed down).
                A bit of factually incorrect stereotypical racism there. You are consistent if nothing else.


                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                Drug use is more common. The core family unit is under attack from every freak show. You have nutcases questions such basic things as gender.
                Yep, it was much better when it was legal to rape your wife but illegal for two men to sleep together. Much better when people had to stay in abusive relationships, when children were being raped by priests, when black people had to sit at the back of the bus, when just being different meant social exclusion and racism, sexism and homophobia were accepted parts of everyday life...


                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                Being young in a world so savagely screwed up, so lacking in direction, purpose, or value, must be a great deal tougher than it was fifty years ago.
                How many young people do you engage with on a regular basis? I have heard the survivors of the Florida school shooting and they are eloquent and smart and if that’s the future of America then it will remain a great country.


                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                There were guns in a lot of vehicles parked at school, especially in hunting season. I brought a revolver to high school (unloaded) as a prop during a speaking presentation, and no one cared.
                That was nuts.


                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                When I started police work body armor was new, and we hotly debated whether we needed semi-automatic pistols and shotguns in the cars.

                Mid-way through my career not only was I wearing body armor, but I carried a primary and a back-up sidearm, and a 'car gun', a pistol positioned in my car so I could rest my hand on the butt when someone walked up to my car to talk to me (because drawing from a security holster is difficult while seated in a car). When I retired, our uniformed officers not only wore body armor, but had plate carriers available in their gear in case they went up against a rifle-armed threat. And a M-4 style patrol rifle. And the hot debate was how much ammunition should be issued for the rifle.
                and yet you think that the solution is the continues militarisation of the general public. That’s nuts too.


                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                The times have changed, and not for the better. The world is a much more savage, amoral place.
                No, we just have more and faster media coverage of what’s going on.
                Last edited by E.D. Morel; 23 Feb 18, 08:33.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                  Back in the day, the parent taught gun safety and marksmanship to the sons & daughters.
                  Like some teach their kids to drive?? Imo that's why we have a lot of lousy drivers while a lousy driver teaches their children to be just as bad.
                  I'm just going to take exception to this one item here. In New Jersey, all high school students are required to take "drivers ed," which includes not only classroom instruction, but also time behind the wheel with an instructor. I've driven in perhaps 35 of the 50 states, and I can say without a shred of exaggeration that New Jersey is the worst driving state, save California, where I'm convinced that a toke is mandatory before turning the key. Indeed, NJ boasts more laws and regs about driving than any other state in this part of the country, yet they not only pay the highest insurance premiums, but they suffer/cause more accidents per mile driven. The states with slimmer rules books are in fact safer. So clearly enacting more rules and mandating more "professional" supervision does not a safer environment make.

                  Such has been discovered on your side of the pond, as well. In the Netherlands traffic engineers have been removing lights and signs, and the result has been fewer accidents, not more. The man at the center of this effort, Hans Monderman, put it very succinctly: “when you treat people like idiots, they’ll behave like idiots.” Governments make laws because politicians and bureaucrats -- and voters themselves -- think that people are idiots in need of direction and control. Consequently the state steps in and turns the greater society from an association of adults working and living together into a glorified giant kindergarten. See the UK's Nanny State, where the citizenry has been infantilized to the point where they're nearly comatose. Rimshot. (And yes, I'm exaggerating for comedic effect, but I'm also trying to make a point.) If you think that more rules and more regulations makes for a more productive, freer, and safer society, then take a very close look at New Jersey's example, and perhaps you'll have second thoughts.
                  I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                    Drug use is more common.
                    Depends on how you define "drug." In the first decade of the 20th century drunkenness was so common that an alliance of East Coast progressives, Southern evangelicals, and sufferagettes came together to advance the cause of temperance. Carrie Nation spoke for thousands when she recounted how her husband regularly came home drunk and beat her senseless. With startling speed the XVIII Amendment was ratified, and the manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol was Prohibited, that's how fed up the American people were with drunkenness.

                    Suffice to say, that level of alcohol consumption is no longer the norm. Might that count as an improvement?
                    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                      Yes, mostly for the better.
                      A bit of factually incorrect stereotypical racism there. You are consistent if nothing else.


                      Yep, it was much better when it was legal to rape your wife but illegal for two men to sleep together. Much better when people had to stay in abusive relationships, when children were being raped by priests, when black people had to sit at the back of the bus, when just being different meant social exclusion and racism, sexism and homophobia were accepted parts of everyday life...


                      How many young people do you engage with on a regular basis? I have heard the survivors of the Florida school shooting and they are eloquent and smart and if that’s the future of America then it will remain a great country.


                      That was nuts.


                      and yet you think that the solution is the continues militarisation of the general public. That’s nuts too.



                      No, we just have more and faster media coverage of what’s going on.
                      My goodness, what a bunch of intolerant, ill-informed tripe. Welcome to the ignore list. Geez.
                      The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by BorderRuffian View Post
                        I grew up during that period and never heard of a school shooting. There may have been one, but it never came to my knowledge.

                        The first major school shooting by a student was the UT Tower Massacre in 1966.


                        .
                        Last edited by Persephone; 23 Feb 18, 11:53.
                        "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                        "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                          Depends on how you define "drug." In the first decade of the 20th century drunkenness was so common that an alliance of East Coast progressives, Southern evangelicals, and sufferagettes came together to advance the cause of temperance. Carrie Nation spoke for thousands when she recounted how her husband regularly came home drunk and beat her senseless. With startling speed the XVIII Amendment was ratified, and the manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcohol was Prohibited, that's how fed up the American people were with drunkenness.

                          Suffice to say, that level of alcohol consumption is no longer the norm. Might that count as an improvement?
                          In the last few years this has received quite a lot(not enough) attention in Finland. The generations returning from WW2 turned to alcohol, probably for understandable reasons. But there was also reasons such as wide-spread use of pervitin during the war; no longer widely available after the war alcohol had to do. And of course use of alcohol has been a natural remedy for millennias(but apparently no longer for millenials).

                          During the early years of Finland we also had some issues with League of Nations; opium, heroin and cocaine were legally available, which the international community wasn't so happy about. In fact, wiki tells me use of drugs became a criminal offense only in the 60s. Same article also says the use of heroin per capita was higher in Finland from 1930s to 1950s than anywhere else in the world.

                          Now the so called "legal drugs" are another matter. I am more wary of doctors telling me to use this and that drug/medicine than I am about the use of illegal drugs. At least with illegal drugs I am fairly well aware of the risks I take...fixing 'chemical imbalances' don't seem like such a good idea to me with either.
                          Wisdom is personal

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                          • #58
                            ^ Was Billie Holiday especially popular in Finland?

                            I know that Norwegians can really pound 'em down. I mean, I like to drink as much as the next guy, but they impressed me with their zeal. Are Finns in that league too? You know, drink for hours on end, go outside, barf, shove your head into a snow bank, then go back inside and drink some more?
                            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                            • #59
                              Gloomy Sunday for sure was
                              Wisdom is personal

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by III Corps View Post
                                Keep in mind AR-15 style weapons were not available while you were growing up.
                                Just flat wrong, semi-automatic guns were easily available then. They just were not black and tactical looking. I know because I have had semi-auto rifles and shotguns my whole lifetime (I was born in 1961). Just because they are black and tactical looking now does not make them work any different than the ones I have used since I was a kid. All an AR-15 is is a semi-automatic .223\5.56 mm cal rifle. It is not different from any semi-automatic .223\5.56 mm wooden stock rifle except in looks. It still takes one pull of the trigger to shoot one bullet. You have to pull the trigger multiple times to get multiple bullets to shoot.

                                “Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” -- Albert Einstein

                                The US Constitution doesn't need to be rewritten it needs to be reread

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