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6 Reasons Your Right-Wing Friend Isn’t Coming To Your Side On Gun Control

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  • 6 Reasons Your Right-Wing Friend Isn’t Coming To Your Side On Gun Control

    This is a pretty good article, I don't agree with the title. Gun ownership isn't restricted to only the right. The left, conservative and moderates own guns.

    All 6 of the below reasons have been used numerous times at ACG. If you really want to have a discussion on this issue, take some time to read the article.


    1. We Rarely Get to Come to the Conversation in Good Faith.

    2. The ‘Blood on Their Hands’ Attacks Are Offensive.

    3. The Loudest Voices Are Often the Most Ignorant.

    4. The Most Prominent Policy Ideas Have Nothing to Do With the Tragedy.

    5. We Seriously Don’t Care About Gun Laws in Other Countries.

    6. We Really Do Consider Owning Firearms a Right.

    http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/06/...e-gun-control/
    "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

  • #2
    I'd add a seventh reason. We can do math.

    I only minored in math, but Gun Math 101 is "so easy, a caveman could do it."

    "U.S. Leads World in Mass Shootings"...



    The only relevant number for comparison is the fatality rate. Norway, Finland and Switzerland have higher mass shooting fatality rates. A 0.15 out of 100,000 fatality rate is an insignificantly small number (0.00015%).

    The average American has a 0.00015% annual probability of being killed in a mass shooting. This is a 99.99985% annual probability of not being killed in a mass shooting.

    Any sane person would accept a 99.99985% annual probability of not being killed in a mass shooting with at least a 50% chance of fighting off an armed intruder over a 99.99997% annual probability (England) of not being killed in a mass shooting with a 0% chance of fighting off an armed intruder.
    An estimated 3.7 million household burglaries occurred each year on average from 2003 to 2007. In about 28% of these burglaries, a household member was present during the burglary.

    In 7% of all household burglaries, a household member experienced some form of violent victimization (figure 1).

    [...]

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

    There were 116.01 million households in the US in 2007.
    3,700,000 /116,010,000 = 0.0319 = 3.19%

    There is a 3.19% annual probability of my home being burglarized.

    7% of burglaries are of a "home invasion" variety. 7% of 3.7 million is 259,000.
    259,000 /116,010,000 = 0.0022 = 0.2%

    The average American has a 0.2% annual risk of being the victim of a violent home-invasion type robbery, but only a 0.00015% annual probability of being killed in a mass shooting. 0.2/0.00015 = 1,333.33. The threat of a home-invasion is 1,333 times that of a mass shooting.

    My M1 carbine, Smith & Wesson M586 .357 magnum and Remington M870 12 ga shotgun afford me at least a 50-50 chance in a fight with an armed intruder.

    Euro-style gun laws, if they worked, would reduce my odds against an armed intruder to zero-point-zero and only improve my safety from a mass shooting from 99.99985% to 99.99997%.

    I wouldn't choose an AR15 type rifle for home defense. However, no law banning an AR15 can logically not ban my M1 carbine or a Winchester 73.
    Last edited by The Doctor; 19 Feb 18, 14:37.
    Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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    • #3
      Speaking of home invasions... In Arizona they're rare enough that they usually make the news. The last one I heard about was a woman who's trailer was invaded. She shot the guy who tried to attack her three times much to his dead regret I'm sure.
      The news talked to a neighbor, who told them "I'd of done the same..."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
        7% of burglaries are of a "home invasion" variety. 7% of 3.7 million is 259,000.
        259,000 /116,010,000 = 0.0022 = 0.2%

        The average American has a 0.2% annual risk of being the victim of a violent home-invasion type robbery,
        You claim to be able to do math, but I'm not sure about your reading skills.

        On your "home invasion" figures you forgot to mention:

        Offenders were known to their victims in 65% of violent burglaries
        Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% of all households violently burglarized while someone was home faced an offender armed with a firearm.
        Serious injury accounted for 9% and minor injury accounted for 36% of injuries sustained by household members who were home and experienced violence during a completed burglary

        Overall - more likely to be killed in a car accident than even meet a burglar with a gun.

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        • #5
          In the US, depending on state, simply breaking and entering someone's house is usually sufficient cause to excuse the homeowner for shooting the criminal.

          In Arizona, the law says the state must prove beyond reasonable doubt-- note that, the state that the shooter in such cases wasn't justified in their actions. That's nearly impossible to do, so you B & E in Arizona and the homeowner is armed, you are likely to get shot, armed or not, running away or standing there.

          This is a state where B & Eing a house with anybody home is likely to result in your death.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Aber View Post
            You claim to be able to do math, but I'm not sure about your reading skills.

            On your "home invasion" figures you forgot to mention:
            The fact that I might know the home invader doesn't alter the fact that he or she will get "two in the chest and one in the head." And, I won't know whether or not the intruder was armed until the police show up to examine the body.

            Even if you excluded 65% of home invaders, the ratio would only decline to 467:1.

            Originally posted by Aber
            Overall - more likely to be killed in a car accident than even meet a burglar with a gun.
            What the **** does that have to do with the right to keep and bear arms?



            Although, I accept the risk of driving a motor vehicle because the benefits far outweigh the risks. I accept the risk that I might accidentally shoot myself for the same reason.
            Last edited by The Doctor; 19 Feb 18, 19:34.
            Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              In the US, depending on state, simply breaking and entering someone's house is usually sufficient cause to excuse the homeowner for shooting the criminal.

              In Arizona, the law says the state must prove beyond reasonable doubt-- note that, the state that the shooter in such cases wasn't justified in their actions. That's nearly impossible to do, so you B & E in Arizona and the homeowner is armed, you are likely to get shot, armed or not, running away or standing there.

              This is a state where B & Eing a house with anybody home is likely to result in your death.
              In Texas any unlawful intrusion into a habitation is considered an act of violence.

              The classic case is around 1990 in Austin when a homeowner heard someone prying on his front door and shot through the door, killing a 16 year old world-be intruder who was trying to pry the door open with a tire iron.

              Grand Jury no-billed the homeowner.

              Most burglars in Texas are very careful to ensure they are hitting an empty house.
              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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              • #8
                The main reason I'm staying away from discussing the issue with the anti-gun crowd can be summed up by a statement by Albert Einstein:

                “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.
                Too Much To Do Too Little Time

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by FTCS View Post
                  “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.
                  I see people posting this quote, as of late, everywhere. Ironic, isn't it.
                  Wisdom is personal

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                  • #10
                    I love it where he basically says , "...and please stop saying mean things about the NRA.."

                    If you’re really looking to win over your gun-loving friend, try reading up on firearms, dumping anti-NRA talking points, and assume he or she is equally committed to preventing these evil acts.
                    Not trying to win over my gun loving friends, trying to explain you'd be better off with less gun owning idiots..
                    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                    Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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                    • #11
                      Fixed this for you...
                      Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                      I love it where he basically says , "...and please stop saying mean things about the NRA.."



                      Not trying to win over my gun loving friends, trying to explain you'd be better off with less idiots..
                      We'd be better off with less idiots of all types.
                      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                        (...)
                        We'd be better off with less idiots of all types.
                        No doubt, but your BOR/constitution screws you over in that regard.

                        We have - percentually - as much idiots as you have, and murderous bastards in equal measure, but ours do not have the "god given right" to own and carry a gun.

                        And the article above, like all others like it, does it best to dance around that simple fact.

                        "All people created equal" I think not, some are created with a sense of reason and logic and can thus be trusted with a gun.

                        Most are not.

                        Oh, and just to be clear, I have plenty of "right wing friends", most of them own guns, none of them feels the need to hand guns to everyone else though, because after all, what's the point of being "right" IF the "left" has the same "rights" as you do ?

                        Your constitution and certainly the Bill Of Rights are among the most quintessential leftist documents in human history, defend them if you must, but please do not come here to tell me you are The Right.

                        You are not.
                        Last edited by Snowygerry; 20 Feb 18, 06:42.
                        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                        Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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                        • #13
                          Pretty much covers it. To summarize:

                          Would you like an actual honest conversation about real, possible firearms policies and how they might be supported and implemented?

                          Then how about start from there, rather than throwing out crazy, vapid, and ignorant talking points then screaming down the other side by shrieking that "you want dead kids" and "if you don't agree with me then all murders are your fault".

                          It really is that simple. After all, remember at some point we did have an honest conversation that concluded that rifles and shotguns small enough to easily conceal were probably a bad idea used predominately by criminals and useless to most everyone else. And that owning a BAR was probably something that a person might need more extensive checks on.
                          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                            No doubt, but your BOR/constitution screws you over in that regard.

                            We have - percentually - as much idiots as you have, and murderous bastards in equal measure, but ours do not have the "god given right" to own and carry a gun.

                            And the article above, like all others like it, does it best to dance around that simple fact.

                            "All people created equal" I think not, some are created with a sense of reason and logic and can thus be trusted with a gun.

                            Most are not.


                            Quite true. But the mechanism for deciding who is and isn't is vitally important. After all, there used to be a mechanism that said "If you're not nobly born you cannot own XYZ weapons". One of the founding Liberal principles is that 'all men are created equal', because to say that some men are more equal to others outside of proveable personal choices, is to recreate the very social strata that the Enlightenment was on principle against.


                            Oh, and just to be clear, I have plenty of "right wing friends", most of them own guns, none of them feels the need to hand guns to everyone else though, because after all, what's the point of being "right" IF the "left" has the same "rights" as you do ?

                            I own guns, and I encourage others to exercise their rights. But I don't feel the need to hand guns to anyone else. In my line of work we have an only semi-joking view of gun control "If I'm there, and there's a gun, I want to be in control of it". However, I also understand the long view.
                            That the original gun control legislation was there to keep guns out of the hands of the common man because it gave him the power to kill his "betters"
                            who otherwise were practically immune to whatever meager weapons he was allowed to own. As someone who would actually fit within the class of "betters" I scoff a bit at the idea of reducing firearms ownership to the police and military even while incessantly arguing about how corrupt and evil said organizations are.


                            Your constitution and certainly the Bill Of Rights are among the most quintessential leftist documents in human history, defend them if you must, but please do not come here to tell me you are The Right.

                            You are not.
                            Left and Right have been corrupted to the point where they're not recognizable. The political Left is Antifa, SJWs, Communists, etc. The political Right is your actual Klansmen and Neo-Nazis (rather than the blanket statements by the Left). The Article is actually referring in part to the two branches of the political Center. Liberals and Conservatives. Liberals being more along the lines of classical liberals, maybe with some very mild socialism included. Conservatives having some classical liberal values but being relatively stoic and resistant to CHANGE. That last point is the salient one, Conservatives aren't politically on the Right, not necessarily (though some can be). Conservatives are simply resistant to Change in either direction. On the grand scale Conservatives get no respect from either side, because both the Left and Right want changes in their direction and want them now. Currently the Left is the ones doing the smearing because they won the college wars (culture war) and they feel like it's their time to 'fundamentally change' things. But on the whole, conservatives really shouldn't be smeared......they should be respected for what they are.....the drag chute that keeps the racecar on the track and moderates things so that they don't go to either extreme too quickly.
                            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                            • #15
                              That the original gun control legislation was there to keep guns out of the hands of the common man because it gave him the power to kill his "betters"
                              Not quite, usually guns are put into the hands of the "common man" to go and kill our political enemies.

                              That's what we call the army.

                              If the "betters" are standing alone against the multitude, it will not matter if the multitude has the right to own guns or not.

                              Look at the French revolution - no right to own guns, yet the Ancient Regime was slaughtered.

                              Look at your own revolution, your right to own guns comes after your independence, not before.

                              Look at Syria, Yemen, Somalia today, guns for everyone yet tyranny and authoritarianism a plenty.



                              Edit, I will pass for another left/right discussion here, we've been over that many times before, but since the article in OP was framed in that manner, I figured it deserved a single reply
                              Last edited by Snowygerry; 20 Feb 18, 07:21.
                              High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                              Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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