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  • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
    AR-15 rifle is classified as an assault weapon under California law.
    Hasn't seemed to help the Caliban murder rates.

    Their prisons are so overcrowded that they are decriminalizing theft and other property crimes.

    The husband and wife terror team in San B certainly didn't have any trouble arming themselves.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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    • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
      AR-15 rifle is classified as an assault weapon under California law.
      It's just a shell game when the next murderer in California wants to kill they'll obtain another type semi automatic weapon to do it.
      It's a superficial effort for political gain.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Snowshoveler View Post
        It's just a shell game when the next murderer in California wants to kill they'll obtain another type semi automatic weapon to do it.
        It's a superficial effort for political gain.
        Or, they'll simply buy it, or get larger magazines in Arizona, Utah, Nevada, etc., and bring them back with them.

        Or, if they have a connection, do a reverse Fast and Furious...

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        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          Or, they'll simply buy it, or get larger magazines in Arizona, Utah, Nevada, etc., and bring them back with them.

          Or, if they have a connection, do a reverse Fast and Furious...
          And the politicians will then blame their States for the violence to get the votes to solve the problem.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
            Yes. 35 years in law enforcement has hammered home most emphatically that when someone sets out for murder, statute and legislation will not deter them. Speeded up death penalties, tougher sentencing...none of these impact the problem.



            The latter is not an option. you still have to obtain a license to carry, although in many states it is very nearly completely legal.

            Concealed carry is the only change I have seen that has had an impact, although it has had zero impact on the single greatest cause for murder, which is felon-on-felon.



            I do not believe there is any viable method of reducing gun violence, any more than there is any viable method of reducing fatal auto crashes (which kill 3-5 times as many people each year). I don't see either as a 'hopeless cause', because nether is a critical problem.

            You cannot control people's behavior, you simply apply consequences. If someone wants to murder, they will. If they want to drive drunk, they will.

            That's the simple truth that renders all these discussions moot.
            Thanks. Interesting answers and I can agree with a lot of what you say.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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            • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
              Preventing is impossible, diminishing is the only thing that can be tried and the only thing that helps is repression : terrorize the criminals . But that will not be done, because the Western societies have been indoctrinated that a crime is always the fault of society, never of the criminal , unless he is a Republican .
              I agree that complete prevention is impossible.
              However, I would not support the proposition that it is impossible, by reasonable means, to achieve ANY improvement at all.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                Thanks. Interesting answers and I can agree with a lot of what you say.
                In the UK we have managed to make driving drunk so socially unacceptable that incidences of it have plummeted - so it is perfectly possible to control people's behaviors
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nichols View Post
                  Good post Paul.




                  Right now the current laws are not enforced, I don't think additional laws that may or may not be enforced will have an effect.

                  IMO, the larger problem is with society itself. The abortion on demand mentality lowers the value of life. Violent movies & video games lower the value of life. Broken families lower the value of life. Taking God out of the picture lowers the value of life.

                  I realize many wont agree with the above but the above 'behaviors' if you will were not openly present 30-40 years ago when kids took guns to school.




                  Everyone over a certain age that can legally own a gun are currently permitted. If current laws were enforced, less people would own guns. I do think that everyone should have training before they can purchase a gun.

                  Back in the day, the parent taught gun safety and marksmanship to the sons & daughters. My father didn't have guns so my training didn't happen until I arrived at boot camp. The first guns that I shot were the M-16A1 & 1911. When I retired, I didn't have a gun until my European wife decided that I should buy a gun for 'range therapy'. I bought an AR-15, taught my oldest how to shoot and she ended up competing with an AR-15 for two seasons on the Junior High Power competitions. The younger two; I bought a .22lr rifle and pistol to teach them. All 5 of the weapons are stored in a gun safe. The only people that have the combination are my wife & I. Even when the oldest was competing when she was 14-15, she didn't have access to the safe. I would sit with her in the basement while she cleaned her rifle.



                  There is a real solution and it all has to do with individual responsibility from all aspects of society.
                  Thanks for some well considered answers.
                  In particular, the factor of existing laws not being properly enforced - and what flows from this - made me think.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                    There's no way the strict gun laws of California will fly in most other states. For instance, in response to Sandy Hook 5 years ago, California lawmakers launched a crackdown within months of the tragedy that has seized 18,000 firearms, including assault rifles, from thousands of people convicted of felonies, subject to domestic violence restraining orders or judged by the courts to be severely mentally ill. In 2016, a ballot measure passed for background checks on ammunition purchases and banned the possession of large-capacity firearm magazines.
                    .
                    I take it this means, in your opinion, that any kind of nationally co-ordinated approach is impossible?
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                      In the UK we have managed to make driving drunk so socially unacceptable that incidences of it have plummeted - so it is perfectly possible to control people's behaviors
                      I do not by any means disagree.
                      However, my perception is that for such changes to occur usually requires some sort of nationally co-ordinated approach and the will to make said change.
                      In the case of USA gun laws, the former appears to be as good as non-existent and even the latter looks quite dubious.
                      (If the answers I'm reading on this thread are any indication.)
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                        In the UK we have managed to make driving drunk so socially unacceptable that incidences of it have plummeted - so it is perfectly possible to control people's behaviors


                        Murder is already socially unacceptable here. Always has been.
                        Driving drunk is the result of poor judgment.
                        Mass killings are often the result of mental illness.

                        Society can have an impact on the choices we make, but cannot fix mental illness.
                        Deciding to buy a gun is not the same thing as choosing to drive drunk either.
                        Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                        Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                          I take it this means, in your opinion, that any kind of nationally co-ordinated approach is impossible?
                          50 states, 50 different codes, 50 different sets of elected officials.

                          Yes, it is pretty much impossible. All the more so because you will have fierce opposition to it.

                          We do not want a nationally coordinated policy. The key to defeating gun control is that state officials are much easier to pressure & persuade.

                          Meanwhile Congress works largely on partisan lines so the issue there is easily blocked.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                            I do not by any means disagree.
                            However, my perception is that for such changes to occur usually requires some sort of nationally co-ordinated approach and the will to make said change.
                            In the case of USA gun laws, the former appears to be as good as non-existent and even the latter looks quite dubious.
                            (If the answers I'm reading on this thread are any indication.)
                            The single largest and best-funded private lobby in the USA is the NRA.

                            The reason gun control is in the state it is in is because a majority of Americans want it that way. And we work to reduce it even more.

                            The anti-gun movement is loud and demonstrative, but it is also badly fragmented into small groups working at cross-purposes without much funding, where as the pro-gun movement has a single well-funded voice.

                            This is what so many non-American posters don't understand: we do not want gun control.

                            The mid-90s mark the high tide of gun control, with the Brady Bill being the apex of the effort. We have rallied since, and have systematically destroyed not only the Brady Bill provision by provision, but many older restrictions.

                            The courts have uniformly been on our side.

                            Bobo was desperately against private ownership of firearms, and eight years of his best efforts led to a single minor bill which last week was undone before it actually went into practice.
                            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                            • In truth, I've long suspected that the situation is exactly as you say but I've had a lot of trouble accepting it.
                              Surely, I tell myself, there must be something that can be done about this?
                              I still find it hard to accept. It continues to trouble me; even though I live so far away.
                              But as you say, if the collective will is not there, it won't change.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                                In truth, I've long suspected that the situation is exactly as you say but I've had a lot of trouble accepting it.
                                Surely, I tell myself, there must be something that can be done about this?
                                I still find it hard to accept. It continues to trouble me; even though I live so far away.
                                But as you say, if the collective will is not there, it won't change.
                                The collective will is that we don't want it to change.

                                As to this specific incident, well, tens of thousands of schools, millions of students, and one shooting.

                                These sort of incidents could be prevented by arming staff or hiring armed security, adding security doors to classrooms, and similar techniques which are in use in a few schools across the country, but school districts persist in 'it won't happen here'; and statistically, they are right: there are one or two school shootings a year amidst tens of thousands of schools. The odds are on the side of doing it on the cheap.

                                Meanwhile a subject went amok with a machete at a central Texas flea market last year and was shot to death by two customers and a booth operator before he could hurt anyone; in San Antonio an armed robber in a fast food joint was killed by a customer (we had a thread on that one). Four to six times a day in the USA armed criminals and deranged individuals are stopped by ordinary citizens who are armed. Every day.

                                The only mass shooters who make the news are those who choose a venue where they survive long enough to do their bloody work.

                                The real answer is more guns, not less. Fewer laws, not more.
                                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                                Comment

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