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  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    What would you think of Nice ? 100 victims.Paris 100+ victims ?
    Please, feel free to read & digest the entire post before replying.
    "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return"

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    • Originally posted by Nichols View Post

      IMO, the larger problem is with society itself. The abortion on demand mentality lowers the value of life. Violent movies & video games lower the value of life. Broken families lower the value of life. Taking God out of the picture lowers the value of life.

      I realize many wont agree with the above but the above 'behaviors' if you will were not openly present 30-40 years ago when kids took guns to school.
      Correlation, causation, wishful thinking, nostalgia, and plenty of other things get mixed up all the time. I don't agree with any of the above...and even you have to consider then the fact that overall crime rate, especially violent crime rate has gone down. Would you say it's for the same reasons, or would you come up with other reasons?

      If you look at these school shooting they are mostly done by loners. Nowadays they are immediately branded as mentally ill, but I don't think that is the case really. People are social animals, and when they fall off the pack they start doing all kinds of strange things. They start thinking all kind of strange things. If you are left alone to determine your own morality you might soon realise you no longer need no such thing. When you start believing you are right and everyone else is wrong there is no end that you cannot justify. Revenge as well is a powerful motive, and can drive man to do anything.

      Of course, this same stuff(alienation, marginalisation) happens in all other countries. Why it so often results in school shooting in USA is perhaps a cultural reason. Fifteen minutes of fame and all that...of course, perhaps this is not the case at all, perhaps there's a variety of reasons, or perhaps no reason at all. Hard to believe it's because of abortion and atheism...
      Wisdom is personal

      Comment


      • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        Thanks for that information because (especially) as a non-American you are quite right; I do struggle to understand.
        (However, I've considered the possibility that a substantial number of Americans have difficulty with it too?)

        Would it be fair to assume, then, that you would agree with any of the following; and if so, which ones?:

        (1) That improvement of this situation (i.e. reduction of the number of gun massacres and gun-related deaths in general), has no hope of being achieved via laws, regulations or any kind of official oversight?
        Yes. 35 years in law enforcement has hammered home most emphatically that when someone sets out for murder, statute and legislation will not deter them. Speeded up death penalties, tougher sentencing...none of these impact the problem.

        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        (2) That some other measures have a better chance of achieving success; such as (for example) enabling everyone over a certain age to be able not only to own guns but to carry them?
        The latter is not an option. you still have to obtain a license to carry, although in many states it is very nearly completely legal.

        Concealed carry is the only change I have seen that has had an impact, although it has had zero impact on the single greatest cause for murder, which is felon-on-felon.

        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        (3) If you disagree with (2), what would you suggest? Or:

        (4) There IS no real solution and no way of achieving any substantial reduction in gun deaths and/or gun massacres. It's a hopeless cause?
        I do not believe there is any viable method of reducing gun violence, any more than there is any viable method of reducing fatal auto crashes (which kill 3-5 times as many people each year). I don't see either as a 'hopeless cause', because nether is a critical problem.

        You cannot control people's behavior, you simply apply consequences. If someone wants to murder, they will. If they want to drive drunk, they will.

        That's the simple truth that renders all these discussions moot.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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        • Originally posted by Rutger View Post
          No, it's in general. It's a question. Not an attack.
          Okay, I'll give you my two cents worth...

          Originally posted by Rutger View Post
          My simple question:

          If Europe is so much deeper down the drain, why is it that in Europe this type of event (loner having a go at unsuspecting bystanders) hardly ever happens compared to the USA? (I repeat: don't give me the red herring of muslims).
          I don't think that Europe is down the drain. What works for each individual country in Europe is fine but comparing 'Europe' (44 or 50 depending on your data) to the United States leads to a dead end IMO.

          Originally posted by Rutger View Post
          To take it one step further: what could be the essential difference that makes this happen fairly often in the US, and hardly ever in Europe?
          I covered my opinion on that in post 289.

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          • Originally posted by Karri View Post
            Hard to believe it's because of abortion and atheism...
            Abortion and 'taking God out of the picture' were only two of the possibilities that I mentioned. Back in the time that I was talking about, atheism wasn't pushed...abortions weren't pushed as acceptable alternatives...there were no movies like 'Kill Bill'....video games didn't exist.....television was full of shows like 'Leave it to Beaver'...we also didn't have school shootings.

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            • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
              I hope that purely sarcastic post.
              I think it's a great idea. If the school required students and visitors to pass thru a security checkpoint, the shooter wouldn't have been able to gain entry.

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              • Originally posted by Nikki View Post
                I think it's a great idea. If the school required students and visitors to pass thru a security checkpoint, the shooter wouldn't have been able to gain entry.
                The shooter most likely could have just shot the unarmed security people at the checkpoint and continued on his merry way... Or are you suggesting that the security be heavily armed and the checkpoint itself fortified?

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                • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  The shooter most likely could have just shot the unarmed security people at the checkpoint and continued on his merry way... Or are you suggesting that the security be heavily armed and the checkpoint itself fortified?
                  It would've slowed him down, he wouldn't have been able to shoot at will upon arrival. Securing schools are more acceptable than banning guns, don't you think?

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                  • IMO having at least 10% of staff having access to firearms on site would have a big impact.

                    These shooters are all about body count; they have a statement to make, and they want it made in such and such fashion.

                    Put in the risk of getting shot early in the undertaking will cause them to seek other venues.

                    Not a perfect solution, but it is a start.

                    Likewise, secure doors to classrooms. $800 would have prevented Sandy Hook by denying him access to the classrooms.

                    It does not help with school functions or lunchrooms, but I believe that a layers response is going to be required.

                    The key is these guys are looking for soft targets. Make their effort involve risk or complications, and they will choose a different venue.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nikki View Post
                      It would've slowed him down, he wouldn't have been able to shoot at will upon arrival. Securing schools are more acceptable than banning guns, don't you think?
                      That, of course, is pure common sense. Don't expect to see it acted upon.

                      The principle reason why there are so many school shootings/massacres these days is not the availability of firearms, they have always been around, but the rise of instantaneous world wide information exchange. It is no coincidence that numerous shootings began with the rise of the 24/7 cable/satellite saturation and even more the world wide web. Rural crime is far less given an equal population than urban crime, but I believe that is mainly the result that one bad seed in a densely populated area has a greater chance to spoil a larger amount of the crop than one which is far more dispersed. Likewise, the ubiquitous of 24/7 news and the internet has essentially caused the world's population to become denser, thus the transmission of ideas much greater. This can be good, but the downside is that bad eggs now connect and influence other bad eggs and more easily corrupt those on the margins.

                      An "old timey" example were those "After School Specials" that were so popular in the 70s and 80s. It was found that those shows which focused on suicide led to a spike in suicides (which was contrary to their purpose). Likewise, when someone who may, in the past, have just committed suicide, now are more likely to "go out in a blaze of glory" copy-catting those who have gone in the past, and the primary reason is that "fifteen minutes of fame" will make their name live through the ages. Cruz probably thought his life sucked, and it will definitely suck from this point onward, but he will be remembered, and that is all he wanted. Just like the girl who committed suicide live on facebook.

                      We should also accept that, for the moment, it is almost a purely American phenomenon.

                      But getting back to Nikki's point, a quarter century on from Columbine and we have done nothing to harden our schools against such acts (think fences, walls, gates, and armed guards) is nothing short of criminal.

                      Tuebor

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nikki View Post
                        It would've slowed him down, he wouldn't have been able to shoot at will upon arrival. Securing schools are more acceptable than banning guns, don't you think?
                        He would have shot up the security guards and station on arriving. The only thing that would change is who dies.

                        Securing schools is a fool's errand. We need to focus on fixing the problems in society so that people aren't motivated to shoot schools up to begin with.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          Securing schools is a fool's errand. We need to focus on fixing the problems in society so that people aren't motivated to shoot schools up to begin with.
                          Good luck with that. People can't even agree what gender a kid is.

                          Tubor is onto something in his media approach, I believe. If these incidents were not reported in the press I would bet the number would drop by 50%.

                          Or if they never publicity ID'd the shooter.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            He would have shot up the security guards and station on arriving. The only thing that would change is who dies.

                            Securing schools is a fool's errand. We need to focus on fixing the problems in society so that people aren't motivated to shoot schools up to begin with.
                            You have that ass-backwards. "Society" (whatever that is) cannot be "fixed." It is as it is. We could do more toward mental health, but little more.

                            Tuebor

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                              What I'm proposing could never be a perfect solution, of course; I know this already; but any potential improvement - no matter how small - is worth seeking.
                              Furthermore, I am not proposing any new laws or regulations, as such.
                              Rather, what I am proposing is a tightening-up (and/or "fine tuning") of existing laws and regulations.
                              If I understand the situation correctly, then this has a much better chance of being effective if the more stringent laws and regulations in some States were universally applied across all States of the USA.
                              (Or have I got that part wrong?
                              I've gained the impression from somewhere, that the gun laws are not fully standardized across all the States?)

                              Therefore, if I am correct about that, the Americans already have a degree of "dictatorship" in at least some States.
                              I am merely suggesting that the level of this current "dictatorship" should be applied across the whole nation, and that any obvious gaps - where citizens can circumvent the laws - should, as far as reasonably possible, be closed.

                              From my reading of the situation in the USA, there are some obvious loopholes that could be closed or at least, tightened up. ...
                              (without turning the USA into a ... wait for it ... dictatorship! )
                              My belief is that background checks are worth having; but only if they are at a realistic level and consistent across the entire nation, in all situations where private citizens wish to purchase guns.
                              Furthermore, I would support laws that make it illegal to sell a gun privately, to anyone who would not pass a proper background check.

                              In other words, I believe some improvement IS achievable without massively radical changes or undue restrictions on the rights of decent law-abiding citizens to own a firearm.

                              How many gun deaths could be prevented with such a "tuning up" and national standardization of the system?
                              Far from all; but even an occasional win is worth pursuing, IMO.

                              Better than sitting back on their arses and not trying to improve anything.

                              There's no way the strict gun laws of California will fly in most other states. For instance, in response to Sandy Hook 5 years ago, California lawmakers launched a crackdown within months of the tragedy that has seized 18,000 firearms, including assault rifles, from thousands of people convicted of felonies, subject to domestic violence restraining orders or judged by the courts to be severely mentally ill. In 2016, a ballot measure passed for background checks on ammunition purchases and banned the possession of large-capacity firearm magazines.




                              .
                              "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                              "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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                              • AR-15 rifle is classified as an assault weapon under California law.


                                Florida school shooter may not have been able to buy the same gun in California
                                https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...n-12617863.php
                                "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                                "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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