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  • Would it help if you could only buy or sell a gun through a legal/licensed dealer?
    Remove the yard-sale sales.

    I don't know, I'm just asking.
    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
    validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
    "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

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    • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
      Would it help if you could only buy or sell a gun through a legal/licensed dealer?
      Remove the yard-sale sales.

      I don't know, I'm just asking.
      That idea has occurred to me also.
      I'm sure someone will come up with a reason why either
      (a) It wouldn't work, or
      (b) It would be too much of an infringement on rights, or
      (c) Both.

      I also thought about the onus being on the buyer, in the case of a private sale, to demonstrate that they have passed a background check within the last x period of time but I can see potential issues with that too.

      Seems maybe, that the answers are not as easy as we might like them to be?
      Nature of the problem, I guess.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
        Would it help if you could only buy or sell a gun through a legal/licensed dealer?
        Not if every Walmart and 7/11 is or can be a licenced dealer.

        I don't think limited availability follows automatically from limited rights.

        US law seems tailored to those who sell guns, not to those who want to own one for sports, hunting or self-protection.

        And to my knowledge the US constitution guarantees the right to own and bear, but not to sell.
        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
          No doubt, but they kill far fewer if they don't have a gun

          Oh, as for the actual question ?

          Would you sell him a gun ?
          The terrorist in Nice had not a gun, but a truck and still killed 100 people .

          Would I sell him a gun ?

          Probably : yes, because

          a) is it not illegal to refuse to sell something to someone because you don't like his face ? Lester Maddox refused to sell to blacks and had to close his shop .

          b) if I refuse, an other arms dealer will sell him a gun .US did sell weapons to Saddam , although he had a suspicious look;if they didn't Britain, France, Germany, Switserland, etc, etc, would be queueing at Saddam's palace to sell weapons .

          And about his face : I have seen worse : years ago I saw someone very suspicious leaving a brothel in Brussels : it was a member of government .

          And last week I saw someone with a criminal look on TV : it was a hooligan from AA Gent .

          Comment


          • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
            What I'm proposing could never be a perfect solution, of course; I know this already; but any potential improvement - no matter how small - is worth seeking.
            Furthermore, I am not proposing any new laws or regulations, as such.
            Rather, what I am proposing is a tightening-up (and/or "fine tuning") of existing laws and regulations.
            Naturally, this would be most effective if the laws and regulations were universally applied across all States of the USA.
            Therefore, if I am proposing a "dictatorship", then the Americans already have a "dictatorship" in at least some States.
            I am merely suggesting that the level of this current "dictatorship" should be applied across the whole nation, and that any obvious gaps should be closed.

            From my reading of the situation in the USA, there are some obvious loopholes that could be closed or at least, tightened up. ...
            (without turning the USA into a ... wait for it ... dictatorship! )
            My belief is that background checks are worth having, but only if they are at a realistic level, consistently applied across the entire nation and - wherever reasonably possible - loopholes closed.

            In other words, I believe some improvement IS achievable without radical changes or undue restrictions on the rights of decent law-abiding citizens to own a firearm.

            How many gun deaths could be prevented with such a "tuning up" and national standardization of the system?
            Far from all; but even an occasional win is worth pursuing, IMO.

            Better than sitting back on their arses and not trying to improve anything.
            This isn't your country, so you don't understand; but to clarify the basics for you:

            The government has no inherent legal right to deny ownership of a firearm to any adult citizen except after due process (a criminal trial). The tenuous legal basis for background checks is based solely on firearms purchases from dealers licensed to transfer firearms as a condition of their license. This accounts for about 40% of all firearms sales in the USA.

            Not all LE agencies cooperate with background checks (nor can be required to), the and DoJ historically only prosecutes less than 0.01% of violators of background checks (In 2015, 12 cases prosecuted out of over 100,000 reported). The reason for this is that the legal basis for background checks is very thin, and cannot be risked in cases save very blatant disregard for a variety of statutes. Background checks have always been nothing more than a bluff.

            It is estimated that only one out of three background checks actually interact with the correct subject's history. And none of them are allowed, by Federal law, to reference a subject's mental history except as established by due process. These are not 'loopholes'; they are a result of the limitations placed upon the Federal Government by our legal system.

            There is no correlation between restrictions placed on private ownership and murders; in fact, all statistical data points very strongly to the opposite: that states with owner-friendly statutes have better long-term statistics.

            Given that literally no one knows how many firearms are in the USA, or who has them, or how many are unlawfully imported, or how many are manufactured by private individuals, any sort of gun control proposition is, in terms of enforcement, laughable (assuming local and state agencies will enforce said statutes, which traditionally they do not).

            Lastly, with 3D printers entering the scene, any statute passed today would be utterly pointless in a decade. The ability to generate any firearm, right down to factory serial number and maker's marks, already exists, albeit at uneconomic costs. But in ten years or less the technology will cheapen to the point where small organizations or criminal enterprises can set themselves up with the ability to produce whatever weapons they want, complete with or without serial numbers.

            The most recent school shooting is tragic, but the system that failed it has nothing to do with firearms, and little to do with mental health. So long as schools make no provision for active shooters, active shooters will find them to be congenial environments.

            Up until recent years grocery stores were the smart robber's choice; that tapered off drastically in the last twelve years. Why? Because the most common venue for private individuals carrying firearms is a grocery store.
            Last edited by Arnold J Rimmer; 19 Feb 18, 05:51.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
              Would it help if you could only buy or sell a gun through a legal/licensed dealer?
              Remove the yard-sale sales.

              I don't know, I'm just asking.
              And how would you prevent the killer from Florida to buy his gun through a dealer who has no license ?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                This isn't your country, so you don't understand; and why you feel a need to post I do not know, but to clarify the basics for you:

                The government has no inherent legal right to deny ownership of a firearm to any adult citizen except after due process (a criminal trial). The tenuous legal basis for background checks is based solely on firearms purchases from dealers licensed to transfer firearms as a condition of their license. This accounts for about 40% of all firearms sales in the USA.

                Not all LE agencies cooperate with background checks (nor can be required to), the and DoJ historically only prosecutes less than 0.01% of violators of background checks (In 2015, 12 cases prosecuted out of over 100,000 reported). The reason for this is that the legal basis for background checks is very thin, and cannot be risked in cases save very blatant disregard for a variety of statutes. Background checks have always been nothing more than a bluff.

                It is estimated that only one out of three background checks actually interact with the correct subject's history. And none of them are allowed, by Federal law, to reference a subject's mental history except as established by due process. These are not 'loopholes'; they are a result of the limitations placed upon the Federal Government by our legal system.

                There is no correlation between restrictions placed on private ownership and murders; in fact, all statistical data points very strongly to the opposite: that states with owner-friendly statutes have better long-term statistics.

                Given that literally no one knows how many firearms are in the USA, or who has them, or how many are unlawfully imported, or how many are manufactured by private individuals, any sort of gun control proposition is, in terms of enforcement, laughable (assuming local and state agencies will enforce said statutes, which traditionally they do not).

                Lastly, with 3D printers entering the scene, any statute passed today would be utterly pointless in a decade. The ability to generate any firearm, right down to factory serial number and maker's marks, already exists, albeit at uneconomic costs. But in ten years or less the technology will cheapen to the point where small organizations or criminal enterprises can set themselves up with the ability to produce whatever weapons they want, complete with or without serial numbers.

                The most recent school shooting is tragic, but the system that failed it has nothing to do with firearms, and little to do with mental health. So long as schools make no provision for active shooters, active shooters will find them to be congenial environments.

                Up until recent years grocery stores were the smart robber's choice; that tapered off drastically in the last twelve years. Why? Because the most common venue for private individuals carrying firearms is a grocery store.
                Dbl standard...you comment often enough about other county's. Maybe this is a subject where you should just stfu.
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                Comment


                • Would I sell him a gun ?

                  Probably : yes, because..
                  So noted.

                  I wonder how other members here feel on the issue.


                  ...is it not illegal to refuse to sell something to someone because you don't like his face ?
                  No one cares what's legal on the black market, but even those who sell guns illegally would not normally want to see them show up in a school shooting, if for no other reason than that it will end their operation right quickly.
                  High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
                    Would it help if you could only buy or sell a gun through a legal/licensed dealer?
                    Remove the yard-sale sales.

                    I don't know, I'm just asking.
                    No.

                    The Bill of Rights protects ownership, which means the purchase and sale cannot be any more regulated than said ownership.

                    It is literally not an option.

                    Nor would it impede anyone save the terminally honest even if it were legally possible. No one, literally no one, knows how many, what kind, or who has firearms in the USA. Before I retired I was my agency's interface with ATF, and running checks on firearms through them produced no more data than we could have gotten from the manufacturer.

                    Even machineguns, which technically are highly restricted, pop up quite regularly, either as recent illegal imports or pre-ban weapons. And by 'pop up' I mean end up in police custody. Lord knows how many full auto weapons are floating around. The rule of thumb is if you can figure out how to buy meth or heroin, you can obtain a full-auto weapon.

                    And you can buy meth or heroin in every town of 5000 population or more, in the USA, bar none.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • The Bill of Rights protects ownership, which means the purchase and sale cannot be any more regulated than said ownership.
                      Well that would be a question for the SC no ?
                      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                        No one cares what's legal on the black market, but even those who sell guns illegally would not normally want to see them show up in a school shooting, if for no other reason than that it will end their operation right quickly.
                        There's no 'black market'.

                        That's what you are missing: you can sell a firearm to another adult, no questions asked and no paperwork required. Nothing. It doesn't matter what they do with it.

                        It is an inalienable right. The government, state or Federal, is on thin ice trying to regulate firearm sales, transfers, and ownership at all. Background checks are a bluff at best, and an empty gesture at worst.

                        The USSC has undone nearly every restriction, to the point of requiring states to make provisions for concealed carry for citizens whether the state wants to or not.

                        The ACLU backed the more recent anti-gun-control measures.

                        Unless you are a convicted felon within 10 years of completion of sentence (not enforced in some states), or the subject of a court order, you may purchase, own, use, and sell firearms.

                        The closest thing there is to a 'black market' is for full-auto.
                        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                        Comment


                        • The number of gun deaths in the US last year was 15592, including unintentional shootings and defensive use(2040) but not including suicides (22000).

                          The number of fire-arms is estimated on 350 million.

                          Thus it took more than 20000 guns before some one was killed .

                          Russia has 9 guns per 100 inhabitants, US 110.

                          Murder rate in Russia was 102 per million inhabitants, in the US 42 .

                          Thus there is no corelation between the number of murders / murders by guns and the number of guns .

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                            There's no 'black market'.
                            Well there would be IF you limited the sale of guns, which is what I was discussing with Ljadw there, not every post here is directed at you you know

                            But since I have your attention, would you have sold this one a gun, privately ?
                            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                              Well that would be a question for the SC no ?
                              Sure.

                              It has unwavering sided with gun ownership. Recently it forced Illinois to create a concealed carry program because the court ruled that the state did not have the authority to deny that option.

                              But the USSC can only refine definitions; it cannot impact the core element of ownership, nor of an individual's right to transfer real property.

                              It is only by a slender margin that the government retains the right to regulate full-auto weapons. Less than 80 years ago you could buy submachineguns from Sears & Roebuck.

                              Currently there is a strong movement to remove full-auto weapons from Federal restrictions. The Feds have slowed it by making suppressors and short-barrel rifles much more accessible, but it is just a holding action.
                              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                                The number of gun deaths in the US last year was 15592, including unintentional shootings and defensive use(2040) but not including suicides (22000).

                                The number of fire-arms is estimated on 350 million.

                                Thus it took more than 20000 guns before some one was killed .

                                Russia has 9 guns per 100 inhabitants, US 110.

                                Murder rate in Russia was 102 per million inhabitants, in the US 42 .

                                Thus there is no corelation between the number of murders / murders by guns and the number of guns .
                                More of your absurd BS

                                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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