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Trump needs to stop US Offshore wind turbines

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  • Mountain Man
    replied
    It's a double or even triple swindle, because the construction costs go to offshore builders from places like China and South Korea, thus taking money out of everyone's pockets.

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  • TacCovert4
    replied
    If they want to freeze to death in the dark, not my problem. Charity is for the unable, not the unwilling.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jose50
    replied
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    New England has no one to blame, but themselves, for sky-high electricity rates and natural gas prices. With world class hydroelectric resources just to the north and world class natural gas resources just to the west, you should have some of the lowest utility rates.
    ...and yet...

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
    And now for something completely different...but related.

    Hydro Quebec promised to be a (much) lower cost source of electric power for the New England area and has been in limbo for years as the controversial "Northern Pass" project has been held up by conservationists, NIMBYs, snowflakes, scenic environmentalists, and other (probably not from here) activists.
    Now the NH Regulatory Commission has sided with these whackos by voting to deny the licensing and permitting of the rights of way necessary.

    http://www.wmur.com/article/state-re...oject/15982499

    New England has no one to blame, but themselves, for sky-high electricity rates and natural gas prices. With world class hydroelectric resources just to the north and world class natural gas resources just to the west, you should have some of the lowest utility rates.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jose50
    replied
    And now for something completely different...but related.

    Hydro Quebec promised to be a (much) lower cost source of electric power for the New England area and has been in limbo for years as the controversial "Northern Pass" project has been held up by conservationists, NIMBYs, snowflakes, scenic environmentalists, and other (probably not from here) activists.
    Now the NH Regulatory Commission has sided with these whackos by voting to deny the licensing and permitting of the rights of way necessary.

    http://www.wmur.com/article/state-re...oject/15982499

    Last edited by Jose50; 02 Feb 18, 09:50.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Am I the only one to think of Cervantes reading this thread

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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Jazsa View Post
    Offshore will get $57.50 per megawatt. Hinkley gets $92.50. The reason offshore gets less is because the power will be bought whenever the turbines are producing - needed or not. Hinkley's power will only be bought when needed. That's a pretty big concession being made to offshore generators when you look closely.
    Is that right? Quite a big fine-print advantage to wind.

    Policy changes, privatisations, nationalisations the list goes on. Hinkley's construction history is soaked in political nonsense. Hardly a poster child nuclear project. More like a worse case scenario. So no great achievement for offshore power to become cheaper than Hinkley.
    What could be even worse is that the reactor design hasn't even been proven to work yet. They've been building a couple to this design - in Finland and France - for a long time now, massively overbudget and overtime. I think the contract with Hinckley C allows UK government to walk away if these other reactors aren't producing by 2020.

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  • Jazsa
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    "Energy from offshore wind in the UK will be cheaper than electricity from new nuclear power for the first time.

    The cost of subsidies for new offshore wind farms has halved since the last 2015 auction for clean energy projects

    Two firms said they were willing to build offshore wind farms for a guaranteed price of £57.50 per megawatt hour for 2022-23.

    This compares with the new Hinkley Point C nuclear plant securing subsidies of £92.50 per megawatt hour."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41220948
    What is being subsidised? If generators are being paid either $57.50 or $92.50 for a megawatt hour isn't that a fee?

    Offshore will get $57.50 per megawatt. Hinkley gets $92.50. The reason offshore gets less is because the power will be bought whenever the turbines are producing - needed or not. Hinkley's power will only be bought when needed. That's a pretty big concession being made to offshore generators when you look closely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jazsa
    replied
    I've done a bit reading on the Hinkley plant history. I think it's pretty clear that the cost of the plant has been somewhat (shedload) increased by politics.


    Policy changes, privatisations, nationalisations the list goes on. Hinkley's construction history is soaked in political nonsense. Hardly a poster child nuclear project. More like a worse case scenario. So no great achievement for offshore power to become cheaper than Hinkley.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    Some of our old nuke plants have been running for coming upto 60 years.

    Can't say for wind but the interconnectors will be there, hopefully they can just plug and play better turbine designs when the time comes.
    Properly maintained, nuke plants should be able to operate for 100 years.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    The strike price is more complicated. If the market rate goes above the strike price, I think they have to rebate the difference.

    Hinkley C will still be running in 35 years. Will Hornsea 2?
    Some of our old nuke plants have been running for coming upto 60 years.

    Can't say for wind but the interconnectors will be there, hopefully they can just plug and play better turbine designs when the time comes.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    AIUI The strike price for the new wind is only guaranteed for the first 15 years - after that its market rate?

    For Hinckley C they get the subsidy for 35 bloody years!
    The strike price is more complicated. If the market rate goes above the strike price, I think they have to rebate the difference.

    Hinkley C will still be running in 35 years. Will Hornsea 2?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    The £/MWh for Hinckley Point are close to what it will actually cost and it will generate full capacity 90% of its service life.

    The £/MWh for Hornsea 2 are about half of what it will actually cost and it will generate full capacity for less than half of its service life.
    AIUI The strike price for the new wind is only guaranteed for the first 15 years - after that its market rate?

    For Hinckley C they get the subsidy for 35 bloody years!

    Leave a comment:


  • The Doctor
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    Yes, we are. Although new nuclear is for us, surprisingly, the bigger swindle.
    The £/MWh for Hinckley Point are close to what it will actually cost and it will generate full capacity 90% of its service life.

    The £/MWh for Hornsea 2 are about half of what it will actually cost and it will generate full capacity for less than half of its service life.

    This graph isn't a coincidence:



    France gets ~75% of its electricity from nuclear power. Germany and Denmark are the world leaders in offshore wind energy. If you're going to subsidize a generation source, you should subsidize the ones that actually work (coal and nuclear power).

    Leave a comment:


  • Jazsa
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    "Energy from offshore wind in the UK will be cheaper than electricity from new nuclear power for the first time.

    The cost of subsidies for new offshore wind farms has halved since the last 2015 auction for clean energy projects

    Two firms said they were willing to build offshore wind farms for a guaranteed price of £57.50 per megawatt hour for 2022-23.

    This compares with the new Hinkley Point C nuclear plant securing subsidies of £92.50 per megawatt hour."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41220948
    Now I wonder if the UK factors in corrosive control costs? One thing they don't do (I've found no evidence anyway) is factor in the cost of baseload backup generation capacity for the turbines. If a stable grid is required then every watt of installed turbine capacity needs to be backed up by a watt of baseload capacity (usually gas turbines). If an unstable grid is what you seek then a certain amount of backup is still required due to the 'erratic' nature of wind power production. Wind power has a nasty habit of generating power when not needed and not producing when it is.

    Australia recently had Elon install a Tesla battery pack in South Australia. It was only needed to support South Australia's wind turbines but do you think the $100m price tag was added to the cost of wind power? Nope. South Aus also acquired several gas turbine units to backup the wind turbines. Were those costs added to the wind power bill? Nope.


    I'd also love to see a build cost break down of the Hinkly Plant. Me thinks there would be a lot of red tape costs involved. Costs that servo no practical function other than to allay the fears of those that think everything nuclear is an atomic bomb. I also would bet my house that every single cost, however unrelated, would be guaranteed to be added to the cost of nuclear unlike renewables.

    When it comes to build costs I doubt there is any other industry that makes more use of 'creative accounting' then the renewable energy industry. One of their best 'moves' is to base generation costs on output levels that are never achieved ie a site will produce an average 100kw/h a year in the brochure but only provide half that in service.

    Leave a comment:

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